I bought a WarmLite sleeping bag in 1993. It had a few
initial problems, which were fixed. After a year it
developed a more serious problem, which got worse with
time. I called them up, describing the problem, and
returned the bag to be fixed in 1995. The bag was returned
unrepaired, and the owner, Jack Stephenson tried to say
that it wasn't really so bad (I have heard that the bag is
constructed like a Chinese puzzle box, and virtually
impossible to repair).
I have finally gotten a picture of the interior rips.
Here is a picture of the bag held up against the sun. The
outside of the bag is pink, and the inside of the bag is
blue. Next to the inside blue nylon are several layers of
aluminized polyethylene and nylon mesh. The photo is of the
largest rip. Where all the layers of the aluminized
polyethylene are ripped, you can clearly see the pink
exterior fabric. There is about 2 inches or so of down
between the inside and outside fabric, which makes things a
bit fuzzy. Based on the ruler, I would estimate the rip is
at least 20 square inches. The bag is supposed to have a
solid sheet (other than sewing holes and zippers) of
waterproof material next to the sleeping person. Here is
the picture:
After WarmLite went online, I decided to try to get the bag
fixed. I had heard that Jack's son was more-or-less in charge of
the company, and I had hoped that he would be reasonable. It
seems that he defers problems such as mine to his dad.
It seems to me that Jack looks down on people (calling me an
idiot, and accusing me of being ignorant of basic engineering).
What he is unaware of is that I happen to be well schooled in
basic engineering, having graduated from one of the finest
engineering colleges in the country, Harvey Mudd College, and I am now
working at NASA's Jet
Propulsion Laboratory. I think Jack is missing some simple
engineering principles such as (if it is a manufacturing defect
then it would be broken when shipped vs. not able to withstand
general use).
So I am posting these letters between myself and Jack, in the
hopes that others will gain insight into his thoughts.
Jack claims that I have abusive sleep habits which has caused
some insignificant rips in the bag which he doesn't want to
fix.
I claim that the bag material has failed in a significant way,
compromising the vapor barrier quality of it, and that it should
be strong enough to withstand normal sleeping.
Below is some email between myself and Jack Stephenson, owner
of Stephenson WarmLite Equipment inc. Due to the nature of HTML,
the text has been slightly reformatted, however I have added
nothing to the text. At the bottom, is a letter from a friend,
Ken Sandberg to Jack.
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 10:14:49 PDT
From: Turbo
To: inquiries@warmlite.com
Subject: vap-r-soft problem
I have one of your triple bags. There is a problem with the
vap-r-soft interior. The fabric rips where it is sewn
horizontally to the interior baffles. I have seen and held a
piece of raw vap-r-soft material, and it is very strong. Less
than 1 lb of force will rip mine at the seams however. Is there
anything that can be done for my bag? The problem is with both my
thin and my thick tops.
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 13:38:37 -0400
From: "Jack Stephenson" jack@warmlite.com
To: Turbo
Subject: Reply re: bag fabric
Turbo. You have likely confused material names. There are
no visible horizontal interior seams with the Vap-R-Soft
interior, which is a combination of 2 aluminized polyethylene
layers with light netting on each side and between, sewn to the
baffles, and a cover layer of soft porous fabric (same as
exterior). The standard vapor barrier fabric is ripstop nylon
with a light urethane coating on the side towards the Down. ALL
nylon is sensitive to acid and sunlight. Washing with chlorox
will rapidly degrade ALL nylon. Even mild chlorox (as often
suggested by sellers of it for use on nylon) will sensitize it to
sun damage at 3 to 5 times normal rate. Some people have
excessively acid sweat, which if left on nylon very long will
greatly weaken it. One or more of the above caused the fabric
weakness.
The fix depends on how bad the damage is. Simply covering it with
new and better VB layer (the silicone coated material) will
protect it from more damage. Any rips in the fabric, and any loss
of baffle connection must be fixed first. One way would be to sew
porous nylon to existing baffle edges where separation has
occured, then bond that fabric to original fabric with ZOO4
thermoset urethane. Difficult and slow, but should work. You (or
we) could do that. Then a layer of the silicone coated fabric
would be sewn over it all, attaching along zippers and collar
seams. Again you (or we) could do that. If we did it the cost
will be $35 for the cover fabric and installation (per layer),
and unknown cost for inner repair: depends on how much is
needed.
I would expect that sort of problem to show first on the bottom,
then much later on the tops. But it depends on use (or abuse).
Give us better clues as to when you got it, what materials are
where, and what previous repairs were done!
Another slight possibility: long ago we used a polyethylene
laminated to nylon on interiors (for about a year). If it's that
material, delamination will let the polyethylene tear easily
along stitch lines, but nylon stays firmly attached to baffles .
Fix then is to peel off any loose polyethylene and then cover
with new fabric as above.
One might say the main problem with good Down is it lets a bag
last long enough for the fabric to show effects of wear and
damage!
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99
From: Turbo
To: "Jack Stephenson" jack@warmlite.com,
inquiries@warmlite.com
Subject: Re: Reply re: bag fabric
Turbo. You have likely confused material names. There are
no visible horizontal interior seams with the Vap-R-Soft
interior, which is a combination of 2 aluminized polyethylene
layers with light netting on each side and between, sewn to the
baffles, and a cover layer of soft porous fabric (same as
exterior).
I have a sleeping bag with the vap-r-soft interior and I have
also seen a sample of the fabric (that you sent to Ken Sandberg).
While it is hard to see inside the bag, it is easy to see where
the material is separating at a seam. Since the only material
which is dark is the vap-r-soft, then that means it is sewn
there. As you state, it is sewn to the baffles, which is
horizontal. Perhaps you do not want to call it a seam, but it is
horizontal and it is stitching, which is close enough to a
seam.
At these horizontal sewn areas the material is ripping. You
can see it by holding it up to the light. The sample was very
tough and virtually impossible to rip, yet it is ripping in the
bag. This means that either the fabric is defective in the bag or
was damaged when the bag was made. In either case it is a
manufacturing defect. The force needed to damage the fabric if it
was in good condition would cause the destruction of the sleeping
bag, again, and since the bag is not destroyed it is a
manufacturing defect. Perhaps the stitching was done to fast,
causing the needle to get hot or maybe the stitching was too
close together.
It has failed in several seams near the head end of both of my
tops. It is easy to observe by holding either top against a
bright light. It is very dark, except where the baffle seams have
failed, letting in lots of light
The standard vapor barrier fabric is ripstop nylon with a
light urethane coating on the side towards the Down. ALL nylon is
sensitive to acid and sunlight. Washing with chlorox will rapidly
degrade ALL nylon. Even mild chlorox (as often suggested by
sellers of it for use on nylon) will sensitize it to sun damage
at 3 to 5 times normal rate. Some people have excessively acid
sweat, which if left on nylon very long will greatly weaken it.
One or more of the above caused the fabric weakness.
I have not left the bag out in the sun nor have I washed it
with anything other than water. In any case, how would this cause
it to fail at a sewn area? Also I have never had another bag
damaged in this manner.
Since I paid over $700 for the bag, I have been very careful
to keep any possibly damaging chemicals far away from it, as well
as keeping it out of the sun.
Since I am a rock climber, I have nylon climbing ropes as well
as lots of other nylon gear. I am very careful to keep it away
from anything that could weaken it.
The fix depends on how bad the damage is. Simply covering
it with new and better VB layer (the silicone coated material)
will protect it from more damage. Any rips in the fabric, and any
loss of baffle connection must be fixed first. One way would be
to sew porous nylon to existing baffle edges where separation has
occured, then bond that fabric to original fabric with ZOO4
thermoset urethane. Difficult and slow, but should work. You (or
we) could do that. Then a layer of the silicone coated fabric
would be sewn over it all, attaching along zippers and collar
seams. Again you (or we) could do that. If we did it the cost
will be $35 for the cover fabric and installation (per layer),
and unknown cost for inner repair: depends on how much is
needed.
One question is why should I have to pay for what seems to be
a manufacturing defect? The bag has NOT been abused and that can
be easily seen by inspecting it. Other damage would be seen in
the area, especially considering how tough the vap-r-soft
material is.
I would expect that sort of problem to show first on the
bottom, then much later on the tops. But it depends on use (or
abuse). Give us better clues as to when you got it, what
materials are where, and what previous repairs were done!
The bag was ordered in july of 1993, and is numbered
70A723PKZCMIXED AIR #1320
The only repair that has been done is the bottom was returned
when I discovered that the bottom collar was not sewn shut on one
side, but was held together with a sewing pin.
I sent the tops back to you to examine several years ago. You
downplayed the rips, and said there was nothing to do to fix it.
yet the vapor barrier, which you state is important, is
compromised.
You asked me to weigh the bag before and after sleeping in it,
in order to determine how much water seeped into the nylon. I
wanted you to sew coated, aluminized nylon to the insides,
knowing that it would make the bag heavier and uncomfortable, in
the hope that the bag would last longer. But you folks didn't do
that, and sent me back the bag unchanged.
I understand that the way the sleeping bag is sewn makes it
difficult to fix. You accused me of causing the rips through
abuse. The fact is, if you pull on a seam with about one pound of
force, you can actually see a rip grow.
I have closely examined Ken Sandberg's sleeping bag that was
made almost identically to mine. Neither top exhibits the
problems of my bag. I firmly believe it to be a manufacturing
defect, and I would like to get it fixed.
I have bought quite a variety of backpacking equipment over
the years from many manufacturers and they have all stood behind
their products.
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:55:14 -0400
From: "Jack Stephenson" jack@warmlite.com
To: Turbo
Subject: reply to 6-28
Turbo, I suggest that you READ and re-read this and
previous note until you comprehend it, BEFORE you bitch back at
me for trying to help you! "Those who think they know it all are
very annoying to those of us who do!" There's often more truth
than humor in that old saying!
Your bag description from label confirms it has Vap-R-Soft
interiors on tops. As I clearly stated before, that construction
consists of an inner material sewn to the Down control baffles,
and an outer cover of soft porous ripstop nylon (as strong as any
used on any sleeping bags), which IS NOT sewn thru to the inner
baffles, and is there to give you a soft yet strong inner surface
with no rough seams in it, for those with super sensitive skin
and can't tolerate touching seams. The inner material is a loose
quilt consisting of 3 layers of nylon netting, between which are
2 layers of .4 mil. aluminized polyethylene. The netting provides
the structural strength for the Down control baffles, and holds
the aluminized surfaces away from contact with other materials so
they can function to block IR radiant heat loss (please go ask an
intelligent engineer or look it up; I'm NOT about to try the
impossible of educating the uneducatable about simple basic
engineering). (But, I will digress: Down is the best compressible
insulator, but it lets much IR heat radiation thru, unlike most
synthetic insulators. IF you are out under a clear night sky
without a tent, the aluminum surface makes it as if you were in a
tent or under dense trees, by blocking IR heat loss. Otherwise it
has NO effect.)
The main reason we developed this material was to humor the
complete IDIOTS who "knew in advance" that they could NOT
tolerate the feel of the nylon fabric side of coated fabric. The
2nd incentive was the ridiculous complaints from typical
[teachers; business, English, history majors; political "liberals
who think all progress is bad] that our VB fabric was not
"perfect" and we should offer "them" a better VB (totally
ignoring the FACT that no one else offers VB at all and all the
leading grossly stupid backpacking "experts" (ie Backpacker mag.)
regularly told the world that only stupid idiots ever used VB!).
I have no idea why you paid more, and accepted more weight for
that option, but realize some people think that higher price
means better (not so in this case). You stated originally and in
last reply that the baffle seam stitching goes thru to the inner
surface, indicating it could not be Vap-R-Soft (contrary to bag
label).
The mere fact that you can see where the seams are by light vs.
dark does NOT mean the stitches go thru to the surface! What that
NOW tells me is that your bag is old enough to have the
aluminized (vapor deposited) porous inner fabric, and the
aluminum has worn off, so fabric appears white.
> Abuse and overloads (such as machine washing, "stuffing", or
for some, the automatic grabbing and pulling on hood and collar
in their sleep) can eventually stretch the inner fabric enough
for the polyethylene to tear along the seams and pull back from
the seams. The structural material (3 layers of netting) is still
there, but there is a small gap in the polyethylene. That IS NOT
an "original defect" (else it would have appeared when you got
it, and at all seams), but is simply due to overloads. We've made
about 3000 bags with that material over about 16 years, and have
seen that kind of damage 3 times now. The damage doesn't happen
on it's own, and has no effect on structural strength of the
bag.
You ignored my suggestion that you weigh the bag evening and
morning a few times to see if a significant amount of humidity is
getting thru and condensing in outer area of the bag. ONLY if you
regularly find 1/4 to 1/2 lb. weight increase every night would
it make any sense to add 3 to 6 oz. of extra fabric over interior
to prevent that. The damage to polyethylene is quite visible when
held up to light, but the effect of that damage is only to have
lost the VB along those narrow lines: polyethylene in that
combined thickness is 200 times better VB than the standard
urethane coating, so up to a point gaps only reduce effectiveness
down to that of the standard coating. Incidentally the silicone
coated fabric is as good a VB as Vap-R- Soft (at least in
theory).
That damage is a result of use/ abuse, not a material defect. It
has NO effect on structural integrity of the bag, and it's solely
up to you to weigh the need for any kind of repair against cost,
weight, and effectiveness. As it is NOW it has far better VB
interior than ANY sleeping bag you can buy ANYWHERE (except
here). As stated before we will add additional Vb cover over
interior at YOUR cost ( and about 3 oz. per layer). If you object
to this I suggest you write a letter to Backpacker magazine and
tell them about how awful it is to have a bag that's only 6 years
old and no longer has an absolutely perfect 100% vapor barrier
interior. But, before you do that, you should weigh it before and
after a night below freezing, so you can compare the weight gain
due to condensation to the usual 1 3/4 to 2 lbs. in bags without
VB!
If you want any service to the bag mail or UPS it to us along
with payment estimate for that service and return shipping.
Frankly, I think you were too quick to complain without knowing
what you were talking about, then are embarassed to learn the
truth, so think you can complain more and get sympathy. Not here
you don't! We don't take kindly to idiots or those who want to
claim to be one. Your assessment is 100% flawed, an original
defect, and more argument only makes YOU seem worse. And
yes,
I'm NOT polite to those who are not, and having to waste time at
the computer with 90 deg. heat does NOT make me more
polite!
Date: 30 June 1999
From: Turbo
To: "Jack Stephenson" jack@warmlite.com
Subject: Re: reply to 6-28
There's often more truth than humor in that old saying!
Your bag description from label confirms it has Vap-R-Soft
interiors on tops. As
As I suspected.
clearly stated before, that construction consists of an
inner material sewn to the Down control baffles, and an outer
cover of soft porous ripstop nylon (as strong as any used on any
sleeping bags), which IS NOT sewn thru to the inner
baffles...
Jack, I know there are no seams in the ripstop nylon. I didn't
say there were any. What I am talking about are the seams that
you sewed to the layers of aluminized mylar and netting.
I can see the sine-wave pattern that you used to sew the
layers of aluminized mylar to the netting.
I can also see the horizontal sewing pattern that you used to
sew the layers of aluminized mylar and netting to the down
control baffles. This is where the ripping is occurring.
of .4 mil. aluminized polyethylene. The netting provides
the structural strength for the Down control baffles, and holds
the aluminized surfaces away from contact with other materials so
they can function to block IR radiant heat loss (please go ask an
intelligent engineer or look it up; I'm NOT about to try the
impossible of educating the uneducatable about simple basic
engineering).
I know all about radiant barriers. I am in the middle of
installing superior brand radiant barrier inside my roof this
week.
The main reason we developed this material was to humor the
complete IDIOTS who "knew in advance" that they could NOT
tolerate the feel of the nylon fabric side of coated
fabric.
You didn't mention this in the catalog that I had when I
ordered my sleeping bag.
FACT that no one else offers VB at all and all the leading
grossly stupid backpacking "experts" (ie Backpacker mag.)
regularly told the world that only stupid idiots ever used
VB!).
All too true.
I have no idea why you paid more, and accepted more weight
for that option, but realize some people think that higher price
means better (not so in this case).
I did it because I was unfamiliar at the time with the coated
nylon interior, and I didn't want to take a chance that a $700
sleeping bag would be uncomfortable. If you would have said that
you thought it a boondoggle, I probably wouldn't have gotten
it.
You stated originally and in last reply that the baffle
seam stitching goes thru to the inner surface, indicating it
could not be Vap-R-Soft (contrary to bag label).
I didn't ever say that the baffle seam goes thought to the
inner surface. I said that I could see the baffle seam, which I
can because the inner surface is so sheer. I can see light
through each needle-hole sewn in the fabric also.
The mere fact that you can see where the seams are by light
vs. dark does NOT mean the stitches go thru to the surface! What
that NOW tells me is that your bag is old enough to have the
aluminized (vapor deposited) porous inner fabric, and the
aluminum has worn off, so fabric appears white.
I never said that. What I said was the inner down baffle seams
had ripped the aluminized mylar. Where there are no rips, the
aluminized mylar is quite dark. Where it isn't ripped all across
the seam, the slightest amount of tension on the seam will cause
further ripping of the aluminized mylar.
I have seem the raw vap-r-soft stuff that you sent Ken
Sandberg. It was pretty tough. The vap-r-soft in my bag is
different, in that it rips very easily. I believe it to be either
a materials or manufacturing defect.
I returned the tops to you at least 4 years ago, roughly in
1995, 2 years after I got the bag, reporting that problem. You
didn't seem concerned about fixing the ripping aluminized
mylar.
Abuse and overloads (such as machine washing, "stuffing",
or for some, the automatic grabbing and pulling on hood and
collar in their sleep) can eventually stretch the inner fabric
enough for the polyethylene to tear along the seams and pull back
from the seams.
Sure. I may have pulled the top a bit in my sleep, but that
doesn't explain the rips near my feet, and in several other
places. I really can't say what I did in my sleep, nor can most
people, unless they videotape themselves.
The structural material (3 layers of netting) is still
there, but there is a small gap in the polyethylene. That IS NOT
an "original defect" (else it would have appeared when you got
it, and at all seams),
Well, when the material in my bag is at least 10 times weaker
than the material you sent Ken Sandberg, I consider it to be a
manufacturing defect. I didn't notice it when the bag was new,
because it failed in use, due to the mylar being too fragile.
but is simply due to overloads. We've made about 3000 bags
with that material over about 16 years, and have seen that kind
of damage 3 times now. The damage doesn't happen on it's own, and
has no effect on structural strength of the bag.
I know it won't weaken the bag structurally. It will diminish
the vapor barrier.
You ignored my suggestion that you weigh the bag evening
and morning a few times to see if a significant amount of
humidity is getting thru and condensing in outer area of the bag.
ONLY if you regularly find 1/4 to 1/2 lb. weight increase every
night would it make any sense to add 3 to 6 oz. of extra fabric
over interior to prevent that. The damage to polyethylene is
quite visible when held up to light, but the effect of that
damage is only to have lost the VB along those narrow lines:
polyethylene in that combined thickness is 200 times better VB
than the standard urethane coating, so up to a point gaps only
reduce effectiveness down to that of the standard
coating.
Well, where the aluminized mylar has failed, all the layers
seem to have failed in the same place. There is roughly a square
foot in my thin top where the aluminized mylar has failed at the
seam, folded up, and left only porous nylon and some nylon mesh
between me and the down.
That damage is a result of use/ abuse, not a material
defect. It has NO effect on structural integrity of the bag, and
it's solely up to you to weigh the need for any kind of repair
against cost, weight, and effectiveness. As it is NOW it has far
better VB interior than ANY sleeping bag you can buy ANYWHERE
(except here).
I think you can custom order bags from feathered friends,
western mountaineering and the like with a vapor barrier
interior.
I know the cocoon sleeping bag system has a better VB, since
it is airtight and they inflate their bag.
As stated before we will add additional Vb cover over
interior at YOUR cost ( and about 3 oz. per layer).
I want you to repair or replace both of the tops, since the
aluminized mylar is ripping in both tops. Ken's tops are much
stronger and tougher than mine, as we have tested both of them. I
don't want more weight added to my bag. I don't want to pay for
your manufacturing defect.
If you object to this I suggest you write a letter to
Backpacker magazine and tell them about how awful it is to have a
bag that's only 6 years old and no longer has an absolutely
perfect 100% vapor barrier interior.
They are basically scum. The ads are the best part of that
magazine. We both know that. Besides, I sent the bag back to you
when it was 2 years old, not 6.
Frankly, I think you were too quick to complain without
knowing what you were talking about, then are embarassed to learn
the truth, so think you can complain more and get sympathy. Not
here you don't! We don't take kindly to idiots or those who want
to claim to be one. Your assessment is 100% flawed, an original
defect, and more argument only makes YOU seem worse. And
yes,
I'm NOT polite to those who are not, and having to waste time at
the computer with 90 deg. heat does NOT make me more
polite!
Well, I think you simply didn't understand my explanation of
what the problem with your bag was. Since I didn't make it, nor
design it, I shouldn't be expected to understand the details as
well as you. I do believe that I clearly described what the
problem was. I think you misunderstand it.
I think it a bit harsh me an idiot, when it is you who
misunderstood me. When you take a car in to be repaired, you know
or suspect something is wrong. It is up to the mechanic to
understand the explanation of the customer, in order to figure
out what is really wrong and what needs to be fixed. I am a car
customer. I happen to have a modest understanding of electrical
engineering and mechanical engineering. You are the car mechanic.
You are supposed to know more about cars than I do, and
understand what I am trying to say, not to try to misunderstand
my words.
Let me tell you a story.
I bought a very expensive custom backpack from Dan McHale, of
McHale backpacks. On an outing, I noticed that the nylon divider
in the top of the backpack had ripped. I wasn't pleased. I called
Dan, and told him about it. He said that he had found out that he
had gotten a bad batch of nylon, and that it failed easily. He
said he was really sorry, and asked me to please return the top
so it could be repaired. I sent it back to him, and it came back
to me in a week. It was so perfectly repaired that I couldn't
tell that it had ever had a problem. I showed it to Ken, who has
a similar pack, and he was quite impressed.
Now, Dan could have said that I abused his pack, and that the
fault was mine. He could have offered to fix it for a small fee.
He could have just patched it up, making the pack heavier that it
was. But he didn't.
I am telling you, that my vap-r-soft interior aluminized nylon
is much weaker than Ken Sandberg's sleeping bag, which has the
same material. My material is also much weaker than the sample of
vap-r-soft that you sent him. If I were to guess, I would say
that either the base aluminized mylar is very weak in my bag, or
perhaps when it was sewn, the act of sewing weakened it
substantially. In any event, it is not like it should be, nor is
it nearly as robust as Ken's. In the past I have recommended your
gear to many people, some of who have gone on to purchase it. I
no longer do so, because your service is sub-par.
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:41:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ken Sandberg
To: "Jack Stephenson" jack@warmlite.com
Subject: Re: reply to 6-28
Jack,
Perhaps you think that you are right and that gives you the
right to be abusive and insulting, but the fact is that you are
wrong and your attitude is horrible. You are attacking someone
who has promoted your products and has caused several people to
buy your products, including myself.
I have talked to you previously and at times you have been
educational and at times you have been VERY closed minded,
especially when it comes to design issues with your products. I
had a modified sleeping bag made which has a longer zipper, both
on the light top and the bottom. It is FAR better than what you
normally make, yet you refuse to see that even though I have real
world experience with the different bag.
I will also say that I have had quality control (or lack
thereof) problems with your company. I had to send my original
sleeping bag back because it was made incorrectly and the normal
zipper would not function due to too tight of a corner (over 90
degrees). I think there were other problems too, like part not
being finished.
Your suggestion that Turbo complain to a magazine is humorous,
but since many people put down VB products, it does not make much
sense and would have little effect. On the other hand having a
web page with your comments and telling others of your attitude
and a lack of service towards your products is effective. While
you make a good product, I have to think twice about suggesting
that any buy your products due to the lack of service.
What you also do not realize is that I, another customer, have
been watching and providing input on Turbo's responses. I
*TOTALLY* agree with him and to me it is quite clear that it is a
manufacturing defect. Of course your attack is to claim that the
public does not know anything and is not educated, but you should
realize that you are making yourself look stupid because you do
not know what education and/or experience a given person has.
You also don't seem to realize that this type of failure is
not noticed by many people. I suspect that if people looked more
closely at their bags they would find the problem more, but that
does not really matter since even a single failure should be
dealt with and you should not try to justify your lack of service
by claiming it does not happen often. A single failure or few
failures tend to point to either abuse OR a manufacturing defect
due to the person who put it together. Since there are NO signs
of abuse, then that leaves one option. Also since you hire out
the making of your bags, you do not know what each person does
and what they might do wrong. I would strongly suggest that you
refer to your engineering background and look at failure modes,
including ALL of the possible causes rather than being stubborn
and claiming that YOU are PERFECT. As I said, other signs of a
lack of quality control tend to help point a person in the right
direction.
Sorry for the indenting, but I don't care to take the time to
correct it.
From: Jack Stephenson jack@warmlite.com
To: Turbo
Subject: reply to 6-28
Date: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 3:48 PM
Turbo, I suggest that you READ and re-read this and previous note
until you comprehend it, BEFORE you bitch back at me for trying
to help you!
Sorry, but I have to STRONGLY disagree with the above
statement. First off it is clear that you are NOT trying to help,
but instead just defend your product regardless of reality. I
have read the original message and while there are some
communication problems, I think most are with Jack not
understanding what is being said, not the other way around.
"Those who think they know it all are very annoying to
those of us who do!"
Thanks, I needed that laugh today. Unfortunately it is clear
that you actually think that you know it all.
There's often more truth than humor in that old saying!
Your bag description from label confirms it has Vap-R-Soft
interiors on tops. As I clearly stated before, that construction
consists of an inner material sewn to the Down control baffles,
and an outer cover of soft porous ripstop nylon (as strong as any
used on any sleeping bags), which IS NOT sewn thru to the inner
baffles,
You just confirmed that Turbo was right about the material
used in the bag.
Hey, what did Turbo say? "material SEWN to the down baffles.
You just confirmed the comments that Turbo made, but
unfortunately you do not realize it. This is EXACTLY where Turbo
said there is a problem.
So far you are proving Turbo's point very well.
and is there to give you a soft yet strong inner surface
with no rough seams in it, for those with super sensitive skin
and can't tolerate touching seams. The inner material is a loose
quilt consisting of 3 layers of nylon netting, between which are
2 layers of .4 mil. aluminized polyethylene.
So this material can be damaged by incorrect sewing, since
this is sewn as mentioned above.
The netting provides the structural strength for the Down
control baffles, and holds the aluminized surfaces away from
contact with other materials so they can function to block IR
radiant heat loss (please go ask an intelligent engineer or look
it up; I'm NOT about to try the impossible of educating the
uneducatable about simple basic engineering).
Now, now, your insulting manner will not help you prove your
point, especially when you are wrong and attack such as this are
signs that you are losing the argument and are having to use
attacks in order to defend your position. Sad, very sad.
(But, I will digress: Down is the best compressible
insulator, but it lets much IR heat radiation thru, unlike most
synthetic insulators. IF you are out under a clear night sky
without a tent, the aluminum surface makes it as if you were in a
tent or under dense trees, by blocking IR heat loss. Otherwise it
has NO effect.)
The main reason we developed this material was to humor the
complete IDIOTS who "knew in advance" that they could NOT
tolerate the feel of the nylon fabric side of coated
fabric.
So this is how you think of your customers? You think that
they don't know anything? Perhaps they have some experience in
the area of their body, whereas you do not. Perhaps it does not
bother you, but that does NOT mean it does not bother them.
Also your comments do not speak well of you and your
business.
The 2nd incentive was the ridiculous complaints from
typical [teachers; business, English, history majors; political
"liberals who think all progress is bad] that our VB fabric was
not "perfect" and we should offer "them" a better VB (totally
ignoring the FACT that no one else offers VB at all and all the
leading grossly stupid backpacking "experts" (ie Backpacker mag.)
regularly told the world that only stupid idiots ever used
VB!).
Again more wonderful comments about your customers. Should
make GREAT reading for others.
You are correct about people not knowing about VB. I have
tried to educate people since I use you bag in temps. above
freezing, but that does not make the people idiots or anything
else, they just don't have experience and also they do not
understand that they need to vent a regular sleeping bag too (it
just is not as noticeable).
Others offer VB.
I have no idea why you paid more, and accepted more weight
for that option, but realize some people think that higher price
means better (not so in this case). You stated originally and in
last reply that the baffle seam stitching goes thru to the inner
surface, indicating it could not be Vap-R-Soft (contrary to bag
label).
Your catalog indicated that it would be more comfortable, so
are you saying that you lied about that? You are not doing well
here.
He mentioned that the material is sewn, which you also stated
above. I don't think that he even said it was not vap-r-soft
except by your words claiming that the bag is not made the way it
is.
The mere fact that you can see where the seams are by light
vs. dark does NOT mean the stitches go thru to the surface! What
that NOW tells me is that your bag is old enough to have the
aluminized (vapor deposited) porous inner fabric, and the
aluminum has worn off, so fabric appears white.
Sorry, wrong again. You are making statements which are false
due to the fact that you don't recall what the bag looks like
when it is held up to the light. It is quite clear that it was
NOT worn off. It is VERY clear that the material IS ripping. It
is also CLEAR that where it is ripping the material is sewn.
The material does NOT appear white, it appears ripped, because
it IS ripped.
You really need to think before you make such statements.
Abuse and overloads (such as machine washing, "stuffing",
or for some, the automatic grabbing and pulling on hood and
collar in their sleep) can eventually stretch the inner fabric
enough for the polyethylene to tear along the seams and pull back
from the seams. The structural material (3 layers of netting) is
still there, but there is a small gap in the polyethylene. That
IS NOT an "original defect" (else it would have appeared when you
got it, and at all seams), but is simply due to overloads. We've
made about 3000 bags with that material over about 16 years, and
have seen that kind of damage 3 times now.
So the material CAN rip, so you now confirmed again what Turbo
was saying.
You are also WRONG when you state that it would have been
there when he got it. Perhaps you do not understand simple
engineering concepts anymore. If the stitching is done with too
fine of a stitch or done too fast so that the needle heats up, it
can damage the material and weaken it so that it can not perform
as it should. This does not mean that it will have failed prior
to being used, but fails when it should not. There are MANY
examples of this, but of course I should not have to explain this
to an engineer.
How many bags are damaged like this and the people have not
noticed?
Limited numbers can also indicate that the person who made the
bag made a mistake and there are signs that this has happened
since my bag was defective from the start and if there is any
quality control it did not catch it. Please feel free to explain
your quality control procedures.
The damage doesn't happen on it's own, and has no effect on
structural strength of the bag.
Perhaps not on structural strength, but you have been saying
how great VB is, now you are saying it is not important? Get your
story straight!!!
It CAN happen if the construction is not done as it should be
and can cause a failure in the future since the material can no
longer take the complete forces that are required of it. Your
comment about people pulling on the tops show that you know that
is done and if your bags were well designed, that would be taken
into account rather than telling people to not do it (or as you
do it, don't tell them until it is too late).
You ignored my suggestion that you weigh the bag evening
and morning a few times to see if a significant amount of
humidity is getting thru and condensing in outer area of the bag.
ONLY if you regularly find 1/4 to 1/2 lb. weight increase every
night would it make any sense to add 3 to 6 oz. of extra fabric
over interior to prevent that. The damage to polyethylene is
quite visible when held up to light, but the effect of that
damage is only to have lost the VB along those narrow lines:
polyethylene in that combined thickness is 200 times better VB
than the standard urethane coating, so up to a point gaps only
reduce effectiveness down to that of the standard coating.
Incidentally the silicone coated fabric is as good a VB as Vap-R-
Soft (at least in theory).
So, you tell him that he should see how damaged the VB is? It
is not what it should be and that should be enough. The material
should not rip, but it did. What did you say before about water
and down, not to mention the oils? I thought that it was bad, but
now you seem to be saying it is no big deal, but of course that
is because YOU do NOT want to stand behind your product!!!
Now you also mention that the damage is quite visible, yet
above you said it was just worn. Which is it? Please stick to a
story and get it straight rather than bouncing around all over
the place. It is hard to take you seriously when you do that.
How narrow are the lines? You do not know, yet you make claims
about it. It really does not matter the effectiveness as compared
to other material since that is not what you used or sold.
That damage is a result of use/ abuse, not a material
defect.
Sorry, but you are wrong and making statements that you can
not defend. There are NO signs of abuse. I have looked at the bag
and I know how Turbo has used it since I have been out with him
many times. I suppose he could "abuse" it in his sleep since I
don't know what he does at night, but neither do you.
Your claims that it is not a material defect can not be
supported and your engineering experience should tell you that,
but I suspect that you do not want to admit it since you do not
want to pay for the repair and that is the bottom line.
It has NO effect on structural integrity of the bag, and
it's solely up to you to weigh the need for any kind of repair
against cost, weight, and effectiveness.
What about the advertised VB? Structural aspects is one thing,
but you claim to have a VB, which this bag is claimed to have
been sold with. It is kind of like claiming that a car is not
defective because the windshield is missing since the structural
aspects are still ok. Stupid, if you ask me and missing the
point.
As it is NOW it has far better VB interior than ANY
sleeping bag you can buy ANYWHERE (except here). As stated before
we will add additional Vb cover over interior at YOUR cost ( and
about 3 oz. per layer).
It is NOT what YOU sold!!! It does not matter whether it is
better than any other VB, which you are making baseless claims
since you do not know the damage (based on your statements).
You should do the repairs for free since the bag had a problem
and you can NOT show any abuse (except by the people at
WarmLite).
If you object to this I suggest you write a letter to
Backpacker magazine and tell them about how awful it is to have a
bag that's only 6 years old and no longer has an absolutely
perfect 100% vapor barrier interior.
He sent it before and got the same bogus response. He was
hoping that since your son was running the company now that a
more reasonable response would be coming. Even suggesting to
split the cost would be something, but you refuse to even do
that.
He does not have what he bought and you don't care and your
response shows where you are coming from. Not good.
But, before you do that, you should weigh it before and
after a night below freezing, so you can compare the weight gain
due to condensation to the usual 1 3/4 to 2 lbs. in bags without
VB!
What difference does that make? He bought a product from you.
You make certain statements and claims about it, which are no
longer true. It has failed due to what seems to be clearly
manufacturing defects, whether by design or workmanship.
You say that it is still better than other bags, but so what?
It is NOT what you claimed to have sold. Nice strawman argument,
but it just does not hold water as they say.
If you want any service to the bag mail or UPS it to us
along with payment estimate for that service and return shipping.
Frankly, I think you were too quick to complain without knowing
what you were talking about, then are embarassed to learn the
truth, so think you can complain more and get sympathy. Not here
you don't! We don't take kindly to idiots or those who want to
claim to be one. Your assessment is 100% flawed, an original
defect, and more argument only makes YOU seem worse. And
yes,
You are correct, you were too quick to complain without know
what you were talking about and then too embarassed when you
learned the truth.
He does not want sympathy, only a company that stands behind
their products, which it seems that you do not do.
You are the idiot. Read what you wrote.
I'm NOT polite to those who are not, and having to waste
time at the computer with 90 deg. heat does NOT make me more
polite!
He WAS polite, you have not been.
Jack Stephenson
-- End of excerpt from Turbo
Have a nice day and remember you are viewed based on your
words and actions. This is how people will see you and people
WILL see this.
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:07:05 -0400
From: "Jack Stephenson" jack@warmlite.com
To: Turbo
Subject: reply to 7-01-99
Turbo; Maybe if you and your stupid insulting buddy Ken
Sanberg would READ and comprehend we wouldn't have this long
exchange! You are so busy trying to defend your misleading
statements that you refuse to READ and follow the advice I gave
you. I have no need to defend myself or our products, but DO want
ALL customers to get the best use from them. I CAN'T do that for
those who refuse to accept any advice. I've given you FULL and
accurate information about Vap-R-Soft and the crazy reasons for
ever using it to humor customers who would NOT read or
understand. The maker of that material removed it from the market
within 2 years because users abused it and didn't understand it,
yet we used it for about 16 years with generally excellent
results. You have refused to do the very simple test of weighing
your bag before you use it and then in the morning to determine
if the VB is still effective. 2 others who noticed the pull away
of mylar from seams did that test and concluded there was no loss
of Vb protection. You and idiot Sandberg claim the sample of
material sent you (or him) was 10 times stronger than that which
is in your bag. Please sent me all the data on accurate tests you
did to come to that insane conclusion! Take the sample, sew a
seam across it (size of needle and thread is NOT significant,
despite what idiot uneducated Sandberg guesses at), then pull on
it straight across the seam and on the bias. Any compression (as
in normal use and packing) will have no effect, but it IS
POSSIBLE to tear the polyethylene at the seam, and it WILL pull
back a certain amount, and no more. THAT is what you see in your
bag. The wavy stitching is the original quilting, as we got it.
The straight stitching is to internal baffles. ONLY the 3 layers
of netting provide structural connection to the baffles. The poly
is not structural, is merely captive between the netting. The
poly is almost a perfect VB, as compared to standard urethane
coated VB interior which lets about 5 to 8% of the humidity thru
which would have gone thru uncoated fabric. If the pull back of
poly on your Vap-R-Soft fabric made openings .3 to .6 inches wide
over ALL the interior it would be equivalent to standard coated
fabric as a VB. I doubt if that is the case. You will likely find
the poly pulled back only on area near the neck where you have
handled and pulled on it most, or at foot where you are likely to
kick it when rolling over in your sleep.
You say we didn't "warn" you about problems with Vap-R Soft in
the catalog, but as far as I can recall we always recommended
against it and correctly said what the reason for it was. Yes, we
didn't warn people about tearing the poly because we had no idea
that people would treat the bag so roughly that the poly would
tear. Don't give me the standard bullshit about it being a "bad"
lot, since there was only ONE lot, ever! Your stupid friend tries
to brag about his "knowledge of sewing", but our sewers use only
one size needle, only one size thread, and, if he knew anything
about materials he would know that IF the needle got hot from
fast sewing the holes in poly would be fused and not near as
likely to tear (but you the nylon thread would break first, so
such fused holes aren't possible). As I stated before, those who
think they know it all, like Ken, are very annoying, especially
when they waste our time suggesting the impossible!
You clearly confirm my suggestion that you bought Vap-R-Soft
because it was more expensive. You DID say the FABRIC was tearing
along the baffle stitching! You DIDN'T say that you could only
tell that by holding it up to the light and that there were no
visible seams in the inner fabric! For many years we used
aluminized inner fabric over the poly quilt, and only when that
aluminum wore off could you see the inner material. Later most
people asked for inner fabric matching outer fabric, in which
case one would never see inner seams. Your idiot friend Ken goes
on and one criticzing me for your misinformation on that, as if
it could cause the end of the world! Maybe your feelings are hurt
for providing misinformation when you usually are more careful,
but that's no reason to make a federal case out of it and try to
get me mad at you. IF you simply gave FULL information right off
you'd save a lot of misery.
I find most amazing the fact that you KNEW all this from
information I gave you 4 years ago, yet ignored the info then,
and raise it as a totally new case now! My son William has no
stomach for handling irrational people, so he dumps this sort of
thing on me. He's too busy handling intellingent and fair
customers. I know, the "standard" way businesses handle
irrational complainers is to humor them, do whatever they want,
but I never liked cheats, liars (ie lawyers > politicians),
and refuse to lie or distort to humor such idiots. YOU and KEN
have clearly defined your refusal to accept any explanations or
solutions. You prefer to just cause trouble and be annoying. Such
as the obviously misleading statement: "where the Mylar has
failed, all the layers have failed at the same spot". If all the
layers had failed the baffles would be disconnected (indicating
really gross abuse) and down would be between layers. There is
aluminized POLYETHYLENE between the net layers, not Mylar. I'm
surprised that you repeatedly quote my statements about
polyethylene, yet persist in calling it Mylar ! So much for your
claim if accurate reading!
Yes, for a few years Feathered friends would provide VB tie in
liners for their bags, but from all my conversations from them I
understand they still refuse to build it into their bags, despite
all my urgings. I don't believe western ever offered Vb
interiors. Neither will do custom bags. The Cocoon was a total
failure, hasn't been offered for many years. But, their material
was urethane coated nylon, same as our air mat, and lets at least
50 times as much humidity thru as polyethylene, 1/4 as much as
our coated interior fabric due to heavier coating.
Comparing this situation to your standard service from Dan McHale
is ridiculous. If materials we used were flawed, or we made a
mistake of any kind, we have ALWAYS repaired or replaced it at no
cost. That IS NOT the case here. The material and costruction was
not flawed. We have NEVER stated that things we make can't be
damaged, but the extremely long life our products have indicates
the materials and construction are excellent (or our customers
are exceptionally careful). There has only been ONE lot of the
polyethylene-net quilt material made for us, and the part of it
you are complainng about is the poly, a material that it well
known to be amazingly uniform in characteristics. The material in
your bag is IDENTICAL to material in Ken's bag and to the
material samples. We've never had any other. The fact that Ken's
bag doesn't show the same problem is simply because he hasn't yet
abused it enough to cause that problem.
Distort, lie, argue, insult me, or whatever, none of that can
change FACTS. As your bag is NOW it is STILL far better than any
other you could buy NOW, and the VB property is still as good or
better than if you had bought it with standard urethane coating.
In fact, if you got it 6 years ago, the urethane coating would be
wearing off by now since EPA regulations prevented use of the
good urethanes by then. At least polyrthylene doesn't change with
age, wear off or turn sticky as all urethanes eventually do. Our
service has ALWAYS been far better than any other, and this
letter exchange proves it. No other company would take the time
to answer you, or give you such detailed explanation. If anything
they would say "sorry, it's past the 30 day warrantee and it came
from Taiwan and is no longer made", or maybe, if sent within a
year, replace it with identical one. As for your car example: try
taking your 6 year old car back to the dealer with impact damage
and demanding a replacement because YOU think it should have been
strong enough to take such abuse! You say that I, the "mechanic"
and should understand what you are TRYING to say: thanks for the
high praise, but my problem is I try to believe what people say,
not twist it into the contrary as you have. I suggest you try to
do some computer programing (which I have done since 1963), and
you'll soon learn that those wonderful machines do what you tell
them, not what you wished you had told them! If you really
believed your analogy you would accept my detailed explanations,
instead of saying I don't know what I'm talking about. IF you
already know it all, why waste your time and mine asking me???
Just do your own tests. I must say tho that you are far more
reasonable and understanding than Ken, who is so carried away
with his self importance that he thinks he can act like Clinton
and ignore all facts and reality. He should observe his last
statements, and thus realize what an idiot he has tried to
portray himself as. Frankly I don't think either of you are
anywhere near as bad as you try to pretend to be, but somehow got
the idea that if you are abusive and insulting enough you can get
anything. It is sad that that is often true, but fortunate that
most people don't use that negative ploy.
As I stated before, if you are really convinced that the damage
you've done compromizes the VB enough to justify carrying more
weight of additional inner cover fabric, then you can put such
fabric on or pay us to do it. But first, please pay attention
enough to WEIGH the bag night and morning over many nights of use
to see if always carrying additional 6oz. is worth it. Do the
same test with a non VB bag, and learn the value of it. Obviously
you do believe VB is extremely important (else you would not
raise such a fuss over percieved loss of some of it). So your
friendly solution to all your friends is going to be to tell them
to avoid buying the only bag available with VB in it, because you
don't like being told the truth? No wonder other companies are
afraid to improve products.
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:47:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ken Sandberg
To: "Jack Stephenson" jack@warmlite.com
Subject: Re: reply to 7-01-99
Dear Jack,
I received a copy of the letter that you sent Turbo. I would like
to know something from you, but since you did not respond to the
message I sent before (I suspect because you don't have a leg to
stand on), I doubt that you will respond to this. Why can't you
answer the issues that I raised in my email to you? Why do you
claim to know me when you don't?
You have stated that I am stupid, insulting, uneducated, and an
idiot. Since you only know me from some phone calls and some
email and we have not discussed by education, how can you claim
to know such things about me? The answer is simple. Those who can
not defend their position often resort to name calling and other
childish actions in order to redirect the discussion and to avoid
the real issues.
In my message to you I stated some very basic principles which
you do not seem to understand nor do you seem to be able to
respond to. The most basic is that you claimed that if you
product was defective due to a manufacturing defect then it would
be obvious from the start. You showed that you can not understand
that a product can be reduced in strength due to poor
manufacturing and thereby weakened, causing a failure later. You
can not understand or admit that depending on how it is sewn that
there can be a problem. Since you do not personally sew each bag,
you can not state that it was always done correctly. The people
who sew the bags are not even under your supervision as I have
been told.
You claim that the maker of the material that you used in
Vap-R-Soft removed it from the market within 2 years because the
users abused it and did not understand it. Well, you are the user
of it, so are you saying that you did not understand it and
abused it? I suspect that is the case.
Your request for Turbo to test his bag to check the VB is
interesting, but your test is not quite valid. You forget to
mention that he needs to cover the top to ensure that the water
vapor does not get out. You also fail to understand that a
reduced VB is NOT what you sold, so that even if it is not
reduced by much, it is defective.
I would like to know where I stated that the size of the thread
and needle were important? Here again you show that you are
unable to read and understand. I stated that the size of the
*stitching* could affect the material. If you have N holes per
inch due to the stitching vs. n/2, then the strength can be
reduced. You can prove this by simple tests with N approaching
infinity. Again, you show that you are wrong and can not read and
understand.
I am glad you remember what exactly Turbo's bag looks like inside
after 4 years, whereas you claim that he does not. You said that
it was just the aluminized material wearing off, so he could see
through it, then it was ripping, so which it is really? It is
just what serves your argument. You also state that he should
only have ripping in certain places, but why don't you know where
it is if you remember it so well?
You claim that Turbo treated his bag roughly (indirectly, based
on your comments). What proof of that do you have? What signs of
that are there in the bag other than the material inside the bag
ripping? There are NONE, since I have seen how Turbo treats his
bag and I have seen the bag. I have not watched him sleeping, but
neither have you.
Your claims that Turbo is a liar and/or a cheat is wrong and
insulting. You put off defects in your product by claiming that
it is the fault of the user, but there is no proof of that nor is
there any evidence that the bag has been abused. You explanations
do not hold water (pun intended) and you have offered no real
solutions.
Your claim that you have repaired or replaced items at no cost is
wrong. I had to mail my bag back to you when it was incorrectly
made, you did not provide for the shipping or pickup, nor did you
refund my shipping costs.
It is interesting that you claim that my bag does not show the
same problem as Turbo's because I have not YET abused it enough
to cause the problem. I guess that means USE IS ABUSE when a
Stephenson bag has a problem. The fact is that there is also some
tearing in my bag, but not to the degree that Turbo's bag has the
problem. You farm out the sewing of the bags, but then you seem
to claim that it is all perfect. Why then did a bag come from you
with an unsewn section? Why did a bag come from you with a corner
that was over 90 degrees (with respect to the zipper) that would
not function?
Your claims regarding your service with respect to others is also
false. You insulting tone, your calling people names, making
false accusations show what your service is. I have talked to
other companies and had them provide a level of service that you
could only dream of (in your case it would be a nightmare because
you don't want to do it). I had the shocks and springs replaced
on my Toyota truck when it was out of warranty because of a known
ride issue (no abuse). I had a cover for a pot set shipped to me
at a low cost with no hassles. I had a belt buckle shipped to me
free and buttons sewn better, all without an argument or a claim
that I abused the product. Your letter is only an attempt justify
your position, but it is clear to anyone who reads it what your
"service" it like.
I LOVE your example of Turbo trying to do some computer
programming. It is SO FUNNY!!! You see people are not computers
and while computers do what you tell them, computers are not able
to understand or reason. Most people are able to understand and
reason, as well as doing more than just the basic instructions
they are given. The final part of the joke is that both Turbo and
I have been programming a long time (not that it matters, but it
does go to show that you do not know what you are talking
about).
Nice insult regarding Clinton. You think that I am carried away
with my self importance? You should talk. You have no idea of who
is more reasonable and understanding. You are the one who is
ignoring reality and facts, which is why you do not like the
letter that I sent. You can not reply since you can not answer
the questions nor defend your position.
Neither of us have been abusive or insulting, unlike you. You
have stated positions and claimed engineering experience to back
your position, but when that is shown to be false, you claim that
it is abusive and insulting.
You last statement shows that you do not understand the major
part of the problem. Turbo has put the letters up on the web.
Others have read them and they clearly understand that there is a
serious problem with your attitude and lack of service.
Regardless of what the problem is, your insulting attitude and
name calling does not make people want to deal with you. People
are not stupid and they can see and understand that if they have
a problem, you are not going to stand behind your products and
instead will claim that they abused your products and that they
are stupid.
While you make a very good product, you have a quality control
problem, both Turbo's and my bag had a manufacturing defects
(besides the vap-r-soft). You did not sew a section up and the
turn on the zipper was too tight and you could not zip it up past
the corner. You refuse to admit that there is anything wrong with
your product. When I called you to tell you about an improvement
in your sleeping bag, you did not want to hear about it. I am
talking about the zipper on the light top and the outside zipper
on the bottom. Increasing it make the bag better and more useful.
*I* know the difference both before and after, do you? No, but
you claim that it is worthless (I suspect because you did not
think of it).
I was asked about your products and whether a person should buy
them. Before you last letter I said that it is a good product and
hopefully there should not be a problem and so it might be worth
it to take the risk. Based on your last letter I think Stephenson
is a company to avoid, even though it might be the best product
out there, until a more reasonable and rational person completely
takes over (if that ever happens).
All I can say in summary is that your letters speak for you and
that people have read them and understand what the problem is.
This will most likely cause you a loss in sales, not because of
your product, but because of your attitude and service. All of it
is there for the world to see.
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 99
From: Turbo
To: "Jack Stephenson" jack@warmlite.com
Subject: Re: reply to 7-01-99
You are so busy trying to defend your misleading statements
that you refuse to READ and follow the advice I gave you. I have
no need to defend myself or our products, but DO want ALL
customers to get the best use from them. I CAN'T do that for
those who refuse to accept any advice. I've given you FULL and
accurate information about Vap-R-Soft and the crazy reasons for
ever using it to humor customers who would NOT read or
understand. The maker of that material removed it from the market
within 2 years because users abused it and didn't understand it,
yet we used it for about 16 years with generally excellent
results.
Jack, I never saw Vap-R-Soft before buying a sleeping bag with
it. In your catalog, you described it as being a better VBL than
the coated, aluminized nylon, and it was more comfortable, but it
was a bit heavier and more expensive. Since I like to sleep with
minimal clothing (as I am sure you can understand), I decided to
get it. You didn't mention that it was quite fragile, as mine has
proved to be, after being sewn into my bag. I have had many
sleeping bags, and the interiors were always robust enough. I
doubt that I could harm the 1.1 oz nylon, but the Vap-R-Soft is
being destroyed inside my bag. The nylon below the Vap-R-Soft is
in perfect condition.
You have refused to do the very simple test of weighing
your bag before you use it and then in the morning to determine
if the VB is still effective.
I have your coated nylon bivy sack. When the bag was new,
there was very little or no condensation inside it after
sleeping. Now, if I use it, the bag is soaked along with the bivy
sack. I have to dry both of them out in the morning. I don't
weigh the bag, but it is a major hassle. If it were very cold, or
I couldn't dry the bag out, it would get very wet.
I bought the bag, expecting it to last many years. I had wore
out conventional down bags, and I paid lots of money for your
bag, expecting the VBL to keep the down in good condition for
many years. The down is now getting exposed to much more vapor
that it was when it was new. I think this is very bad for the
down, and will reduce its lifetime.
2 others who noticed the pull away of mylar from seams did
that test and concluded there was no loss of Vb
protection.
I don't know exactly what is happening inside the bag. What I
can see, is large areas, well over 10 square inches, get lots of
light through them, when I hold the bag up to the light. The
light areas are very clearly delineated, which makes me think
that the aluminized layers have failed at those regions. At the
same time, much more water vapor is getting through.
I assume that you use the aluminized layers to form the VBL,
therefore there is well over 10 square inches, that has no
effective VBL.
Now, I know you don't seal your seams inside the bag, so there
will always be a small amount of vapor that gets through, however
I think that large holes in the VBL is much worse than lots of
tiny holes that are filled with thread.
You and idiot Sandberg claim the sample of material sent
you (or him) was 10 times stronger than that which is in your
bag. Please sent me all the data on accurate tests you did to
come to that insane conclusion! Take the sample, sew a seam
across it (size of needle and thread is NOT significant, despite
what idiot uneducated Sandberg guesses at), then pull on it
straight across the seam and on the bias. Any compression (as in
normal use and packing) will have no effect, but it IS POSSIBLE
to tear the polyethylene at the seam, and it WILL pull back a
certain amount, and no more. THAT is what you see in your bag.
The wavy stitching is the original quilting, as we got it. The
straight stitching is to internal baffles.
It is at the straight stitching where the insides appear to be
failing. In my bag, it has pulled back several inches in places.
Where it has failed, about one pound of tension will make the rip
grow larger. I have tested that on my bag. It is much too weak.
Perhaps those seams should never be under any tension, or perhaps
my bag was sewn with the material too tight to begin with. I
don't really know. All I know is that my VBL is failing, in a
significant way.
ONLY the 3 layers of netting provide structural connection
to the baffles. The poly is not structural, is merely captive
between the netting.
Unless the poly is it is too short, or under tension. Then it
becomes structural. The netting seems to be ok, based on my
indirect observations.
The poly is almost a perfect VB, as compared to standard
urethane coated VB interior which lets about 5 to 8% of the
humidity thru which would have gone thru uncoated fabric. If the
pull back of poly on your Vap-R-Soft fabric made openings .3 to
.6 inches wide over ALL the interior it would be equivalent to
standard coated fabric as a VB. I doubt if that is the case. You
will likely find the poly pulled back only on area near the neck
where you have handled and pulled on it most, or at foot where
you are likely to kick it when rolling over in your
sleep.
It has failed in several places, including, but not limited to
the bottom and the top. It seems to me, that the Vap-R-Soft isn't
robust enough to be used as a VBL in a sleeping bag. Have there
every been problems with your coated nylon interiors ripping? I
would guess no.
You say we didn't "warn" you about problems with Vap-R Soft
in the catalog, but as far as I can recall we always recommended
against it and correctly said what the reason for it was. Yes, we
didn't warn people about tearing the poly because we had no idea
that people would treat the bag so roughly that the poly would
tear. Don't give me the standard bullshit about it being a "bad"
lot, since there was only ONE lot, ever!
There can also be problems with assembly, perhaps it was sewn
too tightly, or the stitching was too close together. I don't
know the internals of your bag, but it is clear that others have
had a similar problem with the poly tearing. Perhaps it was bad
materials selection.
Your stupid friend tries to brag about his "knowledge of
sewing", but our sewers use only one size needle, only one size
thread, and, if he knew anything about materials he would know
that IF the needle got hot from fast sewing the holes in poly
would be fused and not near as likely to tear (but you the nylon
thread would break first, so such fused holes aren't possible).
As I stated before, those who think they know it all, like Ken,
are very annoying, especially when they waste our time suggesting
the impossible!
I know materials can be damaged from overheating. Sewn slings
used for rock-climbing are bar-tacked with water cooled needles,
to keep the nylon and spectra from overheating. It was just a
guess that perhaps the poly could be weakened from too much
heat
You clearly confirm my suggestion that you bought
Vap-R-Soft because it was more expensive.
No, I bought it because I sleep nude, and I wanted a
comfortable sleeping bag. An uncomfortable sleeping bag is pretty
useless. I didn't want to have to put clothing on to sleep. Your
catalog said it was more comfortable to sensitive people, and
since I couldn't switch interior fabrics, I decided to use the
material that was more comfortable to sensitive people.
You DID say the FABRIC was tearing along the baffle
stitching! You DIDN'T say that you could only tell that by
holding it up to the light and that there were no visible seams
in the inner fabric!
I can see the wavy stitching by holding up the top to the
light. I can see the straight stitching, which I assume to be
where the baffles are sewed to the VBL. All the rips are
occurring at the straight stitching.
For many years we used aluminized inner fabric over the
poly quilt, and only when that aluminum wore off could you see
the inner material. Later most people asked for inner fabric
matching outer fabric, in which case one would never see inner
seams.
I can see the inner seams by holding up the top to a bright
light source. The aluminum isn't wearing off. It is tearing. I
have demonstrated that to myself and to Ken, with some gentle
tugging.
Your idiot friend Ken goes on and one criticzing me for
your misinformation on that, as if it could cause the end of the
world! Maybe your feelings are hurt for providing misinformation
when you usually are more careful, but that's no reason to make a
federal case out of it and try to get me mad at you. IF you
simply gave FULL information right off you'd save a lot of
misery.
I was pretty clear about my observations.
I find most amazing the fact that you KNEW all this from
information I gave you 4 years ago, yet ignored the info then,
and raise it as a totally new case now! My son William has no
stomach for handling irrational people, so he dumps this sort of
thing on me. He's too busy handling intellingent and fair
customers. I know, the "standard" way businesses handle
irrational complainers is to humor them, do whatever they want,
but I never liked cheats, liars (ie lawyers > politicians),
and refuse to lie or distort to humor such idiots. YOU and KEN
have clearly defined your refusal to accept any explanations or
solutions.
No, I sent the bag in several years ago, expecting that you
would install coated nylon over the VBL. I thought it was a cheap
hack, but at least my bag would last a reasonable amount of time.
You sent the tops back un-repaired, and didn't explain why you
did nothing.
You prefer to just cause trouble and be annoying. Such as
the obviously misleading statement: "where the Mylar has failed,
all the layers have failed at the same spot". If all the layers
had failed the baffles would be disconnected (indicating really
gross abuse) and down would be between layers. There is
aluminized POLYETHYLENE between the net layers, not Mylar. I'm
surprised that you repeatedly quote my statements about
polyethylene, yet persist in calling it Mylar ! So much for your
claim if accurate reading!
So it is polyethylene not mylar. Aluminized mylar is more
common than polyethylene is my experience, and I said the wrong
plastic.
Nonetheless, several layers of aluminized polyethylene have
failed is spots, letting much more light through that the rest of
the bag, which lets very little light through. There may or may
not be 1 layer that hasn't ripped, but I would guess all the
layers have failed. I would also guess that the nylon mesh is
still intact, but its only a guess, as I haven't taken the bag
apart.
Yes, for a few years Feathered friends would provide VB tie
in liners for their bags, but from all my conversations from them
I understand they still refuse to build it into their bags,
despite all my urgings. I don't believe western ever offered Vb
interiors. Neither will do custom bags.
Feathered friends does custom bags. See
http://www.featheredfriends.com/bagchart.htm where it says: Other
custom lengths and widths are also available. Contact us for more
information.
Comparing this situation to your standard service from Dan
McHale is ridiculous. If materials we used were flawed, or we
made a mistake of any kind, we have ALWAYS repaired or replaced
it at no cost. That IS NOT the case here. The material and
costruction was not flawed. We have NEVER stated that things we
make can't be damaged,
But the bag VBL has been compromised under normal use. I don't
care if it was a bad choice of materials, or too much tension
used during assembly, or a bad batch. It doesn't matter to me. It
has failed under normal use. I have owned at least 4 sleeping
bags, and only yours had broken.
Dan could has said that I abused the nylon pocket inside the
pack. Dan could have said that it wasn't designed to be stuffed
with gear. Instead Dan apologized that it failed at all, and
quickly replaced it, in such a way that I couldn't tell there had
every been a problem.
I think that your bag was poorly made. I want you to repair or
replace the tops, making it work well. I don't want you to sew
more material inside of it to make it heavier. I would be a fool
or rich to abuse a $700+ sleeping bag, and I am neither.
but the extremely long life our products have indicates the
materials and construction are excellent (or our customers are
exceptionally careful).
I consider the bag to be half useless. I won't take it on any
long backpacks. I won't take it anywhere where it might rain and
I would be unable to dry it out. If I have to do an alpine start,
I won't take it, because I won't have time to dry it out. I use
it for car camping now, which is all I consider it to be good
for.
There has only been ONE lot of the polyethylene-net quilt
material made for us, and the part of it you are complainng about
is the poly, a material that it well known to be amazingly
uniform in characteristics. The material in your bag is IDENTICAL
to material in Ken's bag and to the material samples. We've never
had any other. The fact that Ken's bag doesn't show the same
problem is simply because he hasn't yet abused it enough to cause
that problem.
Or I have slept in my bag more than he has. Or that my sleep
habits are different. It doesn't really matter. The bag broke. I
didn't abuse it.
Distort, lie, argue, insult me, or whatever, none of that
can change FACTS. As your bag is NOW it is STILL far better than
any other you could buy NOW, and the VB property is still as good
or better than if you had bought it with standard urethane
coating.
I can get any down bag, and a $25 or so VBL, and that bag will
be better than your bag, as far as I am concerned. The down will
stay dry, and last a long time. I made myself a fuzzy-stuff VBL
myself, and I am sure that it will last quite a long time.
In fact, if you got it 6 years ago, the urethane coating
would be wearing off by now since EPA regulations prevented use
of the good urethanes by then.
But I didn't get it with the urethane coating. I got the
Vap-R-Soft, which you advertised to be a superior VBL.
At least polyrthylene doesn't change with age, wear off or
turn sticky as all urethanes eventually do. Our service has
ALWAYS been far better than any other, and this letter exchange
proves it.
I have had good service from Kelty, The North Face, Sierra
Designs, REI, Sport Chalet (free bag when mine wore out), McHale,
Slumberjack (free bag when mine wore out), Marmot, Patagonia,
Black Diamond, Silva, Suunto, Avocet, Sequel, and many others. I
wouldn't say that your service is nearly as good as the other
companies that I have mentioned.
No other company would take the time to answer you, or give
you such detailed explanation. If anything they would say "sorry,
it's past the 30 day warrantee and it came from Taiwan and is no
longer made", or maybe, if sent within a year, replace it with
identical one.
I got a free new bag at Sport Chalet when my old Camp7 brand
bag wore out, as it had a lifetime warranty, even though the bag
was around 8 years old.
I got a free new bag at Slumberjack when their bag's loft was
significantly reduced, as it had a lifetime warranty, even though
it was 2 years old.
Patagonia replaced some pants when a seam ripped, even though
they were at least 5 years old, with new pants, and they even
sent me a check, because the new pants cost less than my old
pants. That was a bit of a surprise.
Silva has replaced their compasses several times with new
ones, when the old ones break.
Sequel sent me a new hat when my old one developed a few
problems.
The North Face sent me a tent bag for my VE-24, when I told
them that my old one has a few rips in it, even though they never
asked me to send them the old tent bag.
Avocet sent me a new watch because my battery didn't last as
long as they thought it should.
All these companies have dealt with problems with their
products cheerfully. None of them claimed that I abused their
product. They all replaced or repaired their gear.
As I stated before, if you are really convinced that the
damage you've done compromizes the VB enough to justify carrying
more weight of additional inner cover fabric, then you can put
such fabric on or pay us to do it. But first, please pay
attention enough to WEIGH the bag night and morning over many
nights of use to see if always carrying additional 6oz. is worth
it. Do the same test with a non VB bag, and learn the value of
it. Obviously you do believe VB is extremely important (else you
would not raise such a fuss over percieved loss of some of it).
So your friendly solution to all your friends is going to be to
tell them to avoid buying the only bag available with VB in it,
because you don't like being told the truth? No wonder other
companies are afraid to improve products.
Integral designs, The North Face, Western Mountaineering,
Feathered Friends, and others sell VBL for their sleeping bags.
They don't sew them in, but I bet they would if they were asked
to.
You do have the best (in my opinion) tent and sleeping bag
designs. What you don't have is very good quality control, or
customer support.
I happen to use my backpacking gear. I have dealt with many
backpacking companies. Most offer lifetime warranties or
guarantees. Most yuppies will never wear their gear out. But I
use mine. Now I don't expect The North Face to give me a new pack
because my 10 year old one wore out. But if it had serious
problems when it was only a few years old, I would expect them to
fix it.
In fact I have sent my old pack to them twice, and they
repaired a blown seam (which I expected), and a hole in the pack
(which I expected them to charge me for, as I abraded a hole
through it while rock climbing). They charged me for neither
repair.
If I had burned a hole in your bag, it would my problem. If a
bear ripped my bag apart, it would be my problem. If some
material inside the bag fails under normal use, I consider it to
be your problem.
It is possible that I have gotten some of the text from jack
and from myself confused. I have worked hard to try to make the
email readable, but it was really screwy
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:34:28
From: "Jack Stephenson" jack@warmlite.com
To: Turbo
Subject: Re: reply to 7-02-99
You are so busy trying to defend your misleading statements
that you refuse to READ and follow the advice I gave you. I have
no need to defend myself or our products, but DO want ALL
customers to get the best use from them. I CAN'T do that for
those who refuse to accept any advice. I've given you FULL and
accurate information about Vap-R-Soft and the crazy reasons for
ever using it to humor customers who would NOT read or
understand. The maker of that material removed it from the market
within 2 years because users (from many other companies) abused
it and didn't understand it, yet we used it for about 16 years
with generally excellent results. We got about 2% of their
production, but failure of the others to recognize it was a VB
led to many bag returns. They discontinued production because it
was a VB!
Jack, I never saw Vap-R-Soft before buying a sleeping bag with
it. In your catalog, you described it as being a better VBL than
the coated, aluminized nylon, and it was more comfortable, but it
was a bit heavier and more expensive. Since I like to sleep with
minimal clothing (as I am sure you can understand), I decided to
get it. You didn't mention that it was quite fragile,
----- (but it isn't, as proven from 16 years of use all
over the world, and still not a single report of weight increase
from condensation in bags with it, INCLUDING YOU) -----
as mine has proved
---- (you still refuse to let us even see it, and years ago
refused to accept an additional VB covering, and you now retract
your original false claim that the bag was falling
apart)-----
to be, after being sewn into my bag.
I have had many sleeping bags, and the interiors were always
robust enough. I doubt that I could harm the 1.1 oz nylon,
----(hich IS the interior fabric)----
but the Vap-R-Soft is being destroyed inside my bag. The nylon
below the Vap-R-Soft is in perfect condition.
You have refused to do the very simple test of weighing
your bag before you use it and then in the morning to determine
if the VB is still effective.
I have your coated nylon bivy sack. When the bag was new,
there was very little or no condensation inside it after
sleeping. Now, if I use it, the bag is soaked along with the bivy
sack. I have to dry both of them out in the morning.
------( We have ALWAYS warned that use of ANY kind of
waterproof covering over ANY bag WILL cause heavy condensation on
the cover, thus wetting the bag. No VB in use for clothing or
sleeping bags is near "perfect" [Goretex is as good a VB as any
VB material being used!!!!], but without the stupidity of
blocking the escape of what little gets thru, most VBs will
prevent significant condensation (and weight increase) in the
bag.)-----
I don't weigh
---(bad english)---
the bag,
-----(maybe because it is such a simple way to prove you
are TOTALLY WRONG and you don't want to admit that!!!)
----
but it is a major hassle. If it were very cold, or I couldn't
dry the bag out, it would get very wet.
---(negative conclusion based on avoided fact)---
I bought the bag, expecting it to last many years. I had
wore
---(more bad english)---
out conventional down bags, and I paid lots of money for your
bag, expecting the VBL to keep the down in good condition for
many years. The down is now getting exposed to much more vapor
that it was when it was new. I think this is very bad for the
down, and will reduce its lifetime.
----(Please present your PROOF of this: All others with
Down bags without VB will want to know that!!)----
2 others who noticed the pull away of mylar from seams did that
test and concluded there was no loss of Vb protection.
I don't know exactly what is happening inside the bag. What I
can see, is large areas, well over 10 square inches,
---(how did you measure that? You won't let us see the
bag!)----
get lots of light through them, when I hold the bag up to the
light. The light areas are very clearly delineated, which makes
me think that the aluminized layers have failed at those regions.
At the same time, much more water vapor is getting through.
----(conclusion based on what test??)---
I assume that you use the aluminized layers to form the VBL,
therefore there is well over 10 square inches, that has no
effective VBL.
---(ie. .4% of the area, so it is still 12 time better than
the standard urethane coated VB. Note that you got the Vap-R-Soft
for it's better perceived comfort [no change in that] and maybe
better VB, still 12X better DESPITE your damage!)----
Now, I know you don't seal your seams inside the bag, so there
will always be a small amount of vapor that gets through, however
I think that large holes in the VBL is much worse than lots of
tiny holes that are filled with thread.
----(yup, fully agree, but 12 times better than standard is
still better)----
You and idiot Sandberg claim the sample of material sent you (or
him) was 10 times stronger than that which is in your bag. Please
sent me all the data on accurate tests you did to come to that
insane conclusion!
Take the sample, sew a seam across it (size of needle and thread
is NOT significant, despite what idiot uneducated Sandberg
guesses at), then pull on it straight across the seam and on the
bias. Any compression (as in normal use and packing) will have no
effect, but it IS POSSIBLE to tear the polyethylene at the seam,
and it WILL pull back a certain amount, and no more. THAT is what
you see in your bag. The wavy stitching is the original quilting,
as we got it. The straight stitching is to internal
baffles.
It is at the straight stitching where the insides appear to be
failing. In my bag, it has pulled back several inches
----(not possible, unless your "several inches" is like .3
instead of 3 inches, since the original quilting would block any
pullback more than .7 inches.)---
in places. Where it has failed, about one pound of tension
will make the rip grow larger
---(no, only temporarily appear larger. Relax the pull and
it springs back to about 1/4")--- .
I have tested that on my bag. It is much too weak
---(by what standard of comparison? The bag is still fully
together, not losing any down, still has better Vb than any
available VB "liner" for any other bag)----- .
Perhaps those seams should never be under any tension, or
perhaps my bag was sewn with the material too tight to begin
with.
---- (the only possible sewing errors would result in the
net + polyethylene layer being puckered relative to the baffle
fabric [sewn on top], thus reducing stresses on that
layer.)----
I don't really know.
---(only accurate statement you've made!)---
All I know is that my VBL is failing, in a
--(in)--
significant way. ONLY the 3 layers of netting provide structural connection to
the baffles. The poly is not structural, is merely captive
between the netting.
Unless the poly is it is too short, or under tension.
----(you may be on to something here: the netting is quite
stretchy, as is polyethylene. As I understand it, all layers are
fed together thru the quilting machine which makes those wavy
stitches to hold them all together. I have no idea how they keep
all layers equally spread, but it all appears very uniform to us.
We found that direct tension across it could not load the
polyethylene enough to tear it, but is is possible to tear the
poly with a strong pull on the 45 deg. bias. The poly can't pull
back between the netting more than the relative stretch of the
netting over the distance from baffle stitch line to the quilt
stitch line (unloaded), which at most is 3/4" (under full load)
between where the quilt lines cross, and when the load is removed
it comes back to 1/4". Thus in relaxed state along any one baffle
seam you could have a gap varying from zero to 1/4" every 3" to
4" [quilting crosses itself every 1" and 4"]. With 6" seam
spacing that amounts to 2% of the surface area. The standard
urethane coated VB fabric effectively has 5% porosity compared to
100% for uncoated fabric (Goretex has 4%). The polyethylene has
.0004%. Thus, if you had damaged ALL seams the maximum amount,
the humidity loss thru them would be 2.0004% compared to 5% for
urethane coated standard VB fabric (which is what ALL other VB
tie in liners are made of!). Thus the importance of doing the
SIMPLE test of weighing your bag before use and after a cold
night. Adding a new VB fabric over interior of 1 layer may add 3
oz. (6oz for both tops), and it doesn't make sense to do that if
weight gain due to condensation is less!)-----
Then it becomes structural. The netting seems to be ok, based
on my indirect observations.
The poly is almost a perfect VB, as compared to standard
urethane coated VB interior which lets about 5 to 8% of the
humidity thru which would have gone thru uncoated fabric. If the
pull back of poly on your Vap-R-Soft fabric made openings .3 to
.6 inches wide over ALL the interior it would be equivalent to
standard coated fabric as a VB.
I doubt if that is the case. You will likely find the poly pulled
back only on area near the neck where you have handled and pulled
on it most, or at foot where you are likely to kick it when
rolling over in your sleep.
It has failed in several places, including, but not limited to
the bottom and the top. It seems to me, that the Vap-R-Soft isn't
robust enough to be used as a VBL in a sleeping bag. Have there
every been problems with your coated nylon interiors ripping? I
would guess no.
----(correct. And, Vap-R-Soft has never structurally failed
either, and on those the actual interior is even stronger
uncoated nylon)-----
You say we didn't "warn" you about problems with Vap-R Soft in
the catalog, but as far as I can recall we always recommended
against it and correctly said what the reason for it was. Yes, we
didn't warn people about tearing the poly because we had no idea
that people would treat the bag so roughly that the poly would
tear. Don't give me the standard bullshit about it being a "bad"
lot, since there was only ONE lot, ever!
There can also be problems with assembly, perhaps it was sewn
too tightly, or the stitching was too close together. I don't
know the internals of your bag, but it is clear that others have
had a similar problem with the poly tearing.
---(who are those others? As far as I know you are the
first)
---- Perhaps it was bad materials selection.
-----(absolutely correct: gross stupidity to try to
"improve" something that works correctly to fit the percieved
possible problems of those who know nothing about it!!! But, I'm
sure your now understand how difficult it is to educate people
about the benefits of VB, so bending over backwards and losing a
lot of $$ to help with the guessed at comfort or feeling problem
didn't seem like such a bad idea at the time, and that may be the
ONLY way you got convinced to try VB. Now you give me hell for it
not being perfect, or strong enough to take your abuse. So you'll
try to destroy the only business that is trying to help people
get the benefits of VB, with your stupid mindless complaints and
refusal to accept a fix. Sorry, but you can't convince people
that I'm less polite than I really am toward lying and insulting
idiots.)-----
Your stupid friend tries to brag about his "knowledge of sewing",
but our sewers use only one size needle, only one size thread,
and, if he knew anything about materials he would know that IF
the needle got hot from fast sewing the holes in poly would be
fused and not near as likely to tear (but the nylon thread would
break first, so such fused holes aren't possible). As I stated
before, those who think they know it all, like Ken, are very
annoying, especially when they waste our time suggesting the
impossible!
I know materials can be damaged from overheating. Sewn slings
used for rock-climbing are bar-tacked with water cooled needles,
to keep the nylon and spectra from overheating.
----( BULL: It's ONLY to cool the needle so the THREAD
won't break!! You seem to delight in proving your
ignorance!!!!)----
It was just a guess
---(Yes, you can guess, but we have to work with
FACTS)----
that perhaps the poly could be weakened from too much heat
You clearly confirm my suggestion that you bought
Vap-R-Soft because it was more expensive.
No, I bought it because I sleep nude,
----(which is valid at home in a warm room, total nonsense
in cold weather when to cool yourself in too warm a bag you have
to vent it: no one wants 30 deg. air on their bare skin, so nude
means soaking in sweat all night? Go nude during the day:
obviously you ARE NOT "nude" when enclosed in a sleeping bag, so
why leave out the most important part of comfort THEN when you
were too cowardly to go nude during the day??)----
and I wanted a comfortable sleeping bag. An uncomfortable
sleeping bag is pretty useless. I didn't want to have to put
clothing on to sleep. Your catalog said it was more comfortable
to sensitive people, and since I couldn't switch interior
fabrics, I decided to use the material that was more comfortable
to sensitive people.
You DID say the FABRIC was tearing along the baffle
stitching! You DIDN'T say that you could only tell that by
holding it up to the light and that there were no visible seams
in the inner fabric!
I can see the wavy stitching by holding up the top to the
light. I can see the straight stitching, which I assume to be
where the baffles are sewed to the VBL. All the rips are
occurring at the straight stitching.
For many years we used aluminized inner fabric over the
poly quilt, and only when that aluminum wore off could you see
the inner material. Later most people asked for inner fabric
matching outer fabric, in which case one would never see inner
seams.
I can see the inner seams by holding up the top to a bright
light source. The aluminum isn't wearing off.
-----(can't you READ? Wear off of alum. refered to is on
the inner fabric, not the poly! Gad, some people are so dense one
wonders how they survived!)----
It is tearing. I have demonstrated that to myself and to Ken,
with some gentle tugging.
Your idiot friend Ken goes on and on criticzing me for your
misinformation on that, as if it could cause the end of the
world! Maybe your feelings are hurt for providing misinformation
when you usually are more careful, but that's no reason to make a
federal case out of it and try to get me mad at you. IF you
simply gave FULL information right off you'd save a lot of
misery.
I was pretty clear about my observations.
----(No one else agrees with you on that!)---
I find most amazing the fact that you KNEW all this from
information I gave you 4 years ago, yet ignored the info then,
and raise it as a totally new case now! My son William has no
stomach for handling irrational people, so he dumps this sort of
thing on me. He's too busy handling intellingent and fair
customers. I know, the "standard" way businesses handle
irrational complainers is to humor them, do whatever they want,
but I never liked cheats, liars (ie lawyers > politicians),
and refuse to lie or distort to humor such idiots. YOU and KEN
have clearly defined your refusal to accept any explanations or
solutions.
No, I sent the bag in several years ago, expecting
---(Bull crap, you turned down that offer then due to
weight, and now bitch endessly but refuse to sent the bag for
examination or for new inner layer. You would shame even
clinton.)----
that you would install coated nylon over the VBL. I thought it
was a cheap hack, but at least my bag would last a reasonable
amount of time. You sent the tops back un-repaired, and didn't
explain why you did nothing.
You prefer to just cause trouble and be annoying. Such as
the obviously misleading statement: "where the Mylar has failed,
all the layers have failed at the same spot". If all the layers
had failed the baffles would be disconnected (indicating really
gross abuse) and down would be between layers. There is
aluminized POLYETHYLENE between the net layers, not Mylar. I'm
surprised that you repeatedly quote my statements about
polyethylene, yet persist in calling it Mylar ! So much for your
claim if accurate reading!
So it is polyethylene not mylar. Aluminized mylar is more
common than polyethylene is my experience, and I said the wrong
plastic.
Nonetheless, several layers of aluminized polyethylene have
failed is spots, letting much more light through that the rest of
the bag, which lets very little light through. There may or may
not be 1 layer that hasn't ripped, but I would guess all the
layers have failed. I would also guess that the nylon mesh is
still intact, but its only a guess, as I haven't taken the bag
apart.
Yes, for a few years Feathered friends would provide VB tie
in liners for their bags, but from all my conversations from them
I understand they still refuse to build it into their bags,
despite all my urgings. I don't believe western ever offered Vb
interiors. Neither will do custom bags.
Feathered friends does custom bags. See
http://www.featheredfriends.com/bagchart.htm where it says: Other
custom lengths and widths are also available. Contact us for more
information.
----(yes, custom SIZING, NOT VB interior! I wish they
would.)----
Comparing this situation to your standard service from Dan McHale
is ridiculous. If materials we used were flawed, or we made a
mistake of any kind, we have ALWAYS repaired or replaced it at no
cost. That IS NOT the case here. The material and costruction was
not flawed. We have NEVER stated that things we make can't be
damaged,
But the bag VBL has been compromised under normal use. I don't
care if it was a bad choice of materials, or too much tension
used during assembly, or a bad batch. It doesn't matter to me. It
has failed under
---(ab)--
normal
---(ab)--
use. I have owned at least 4 sleeping bags, and only yours had
broken.
---(you abused so many? You got ours to replace others you
had damaged.)---
Dan could has said that I abused the nylon pocket inside the
pack.
---(if he said so, he was correct. But then you have the
assinine gaul to accept it as HIS expense! Now we get to the crux
of this whole thing: You refuse to accept responsibility for
damage YOU do, so blame it on others and delight in ripping them
off. Dan Mahale is a nice honest guy who should not have been
abused by you. I'm not near as nice as he is, so won't accept
such rip off abuse, which irritates the shit out of
you!)----
Dan could have said that it wasn't designed to be stuffed with
gear. Instead Dan apologized that it failed at all, and quickly
replaced it, in such a way that I couldn't tell there had every
been a problem.
I think that your bag was poorly made. I want you to repair or
replace the tops, making it work well. I don't want you to sew
more material inside of it to make it heavier. I would be a fool
or rich to abuse a $700+ sleeping bag, and I am neither.
---(from your writings I think you proved being a Clinton
type idiot, --not a fool)
but the extremely long life our products have indicates the
materials and construction are excellent (or our customers are
exceptionally careful).
I consider the bag to be half useless. I won't take it on any
long backpacks.
---(and I hope you won't. Clearly you don't deserve that
much comfort and protection!)----
I won't take it anywhere where it might rain and I would be
unable to dry it out.
---(ie, you're not smart enough to use a tent in
rain.)---
If I have to do an alpine start, I won't take it, because I
won't have time to dry it out.
----(and yet you can't give us any evidence that it ever
gets wet! Pray tell, what bag DO you use, and what is the "better
VB" in it?)---- I use it for car camping now, which is all I
consider it to be > good for. --(and probably the only kind of
camping you ever did, or ever should do.)----
There has only been ONE lot of the polyethylene-net quilt
material made for us, and the part of it you are complainng about
is the poly, a material that it well known to be amazingly
uniform in characteristics. The material in your bag is IDENTICAL
to material in Ken's bag and to the material samples. We've never
had any other. The fact that Ken's bag doesn't show the same
problem is simply because he hasn't yet abused it enough to cause
that problem.
Or I have slept in my bag more than he has. Or that my sleep
habits are different.
---(ie., much more abusive)----
It doesn't really matter. The bag broke.
----(isn't that a bit over stating? The bag is still as
good as any of our standard interior bags, and better than any
other bag you can get)----
I didn't abuse it.
---(another clinton)
Distort, lie, argue, insult me, or whatever, none of that can
change FACTS. As your bag is NOW it is STILL far better than any
other you could buy NOW, and the VB property is still as good or
better than if you had bought it with standard urethane
coating.
I can get any down bag, and a $25
---(where?)---
or so VBL, and that bag will be better than your bag, as far
as I am concerned. The down will stay dry, and last a long time.
I made myself a fuzzy-stuff VBL
----(please tell the world where you got that
material)---
myself, and I am sure that it will last quite a long time.
----(so why not use that, or you other cheap VB in our bag
and keep all the benefits of comfort and adjustability of our
bag? You LIE worst than Clinton!)----
In fact, if you got it 6 years ago, the urethane coating would be
wearing off by now since EPA regulations prevented use of the
good urethanes by then.
But I didn't get it with the urethane coating. I got the
Vap-R-Soft, which you advertised to be a superior VBL.
At least polyrthylene doesn't change with age, wear off or
turn sticky as all urethanes eventually do. Our service has
ALWAYS been far better than any other, and this letter exchange
proves it.
I have had good service from Kelty, The North Face, Sierra
Designs, REI, Sport Chalet (free bag when mine wore out), McHale,
Slumberjack (free bag when mine wore out), Marmot, Patagonia,
Black Diamond, Silva, Suunto, Avocet, Sequel, and many
others.
---(I've never heard of anyone who had abused so many
companies. Seems that you make a habit of ripping off everyone
you can, and are now royally pissed that you can't rip us off
too. The world doesn't need dishonest ripoff liars like you, nor
companies who give in to their blackmail threats. You've been
trying to discredit us by posting these letters on the net,
resulting in a number of complimentary letters praising me for
not giving in to your extortion demands. Probably more important
though is that it has been one of the best testimonials to the
NEED for Vapor barrier yet, and I thank you for
that.)-----
I wouldn't say that your service is nearly as good as the
other companies that I have mentioned.
---(ie, we're not suckers to thieves)---
No other company would take the time to answer you, or give you
such detailed explanation. If anything they would say "sorry,
it's past the 30 day warrantee and it came from Taiwan and is no
longer made", or maybe, if sent within a year, replace it with
identical one.
I got a free new bag at Sport Chalet when my old Camp7 brand
bag wore out, as it had a lifetime warranty, even though the bag
was around 8 years old.
---(and they had to get rid of left over stock from a
discontinued company? Camp 7 started many years after us, and has
been gone for about 20 years!)----
I got a free new bag at Slumberjack when their bag's loft was
significantly reduced, as it had a lifetime warranty, even though
it was 2 years old.
---(proving GROSS abuse)---
Patagonia replaced some pants when a seam ripped, even though
they were at least 5 years old, with new pants, and they even
sent me a check, because the new pants cost less than my old
pants. That was a bit of a surprise.
---(you have more abusive gaul than 100 other normal
people)---
Silva has replaced their compasses several times with new
ones, when the old ones break.
---(you are the first I ever heard of breaking one, and you
brag about breaking several!!)---
Sequel sent me a new hat when my old one developed a few
problems.
---(probably too big for your tiny brainless
head)---
The North Face sent me a tent bag for my VE-24, when I told
them
---(ie, clintoned them)
that my old one has a few rips in it, even though they never
asked me to send them the old tent bag.
Avocet sent me a new watch because my battery didn't last as
long as they thought it should.
-----(you sure destroy a lot of gear!)-----
All these companies have dealt with problems with their
products
---(no, problem customers, which you must be the absolute
worst!)---
"cheerfully". None of them claimed that I abused their
product. They all replaced or repaired their gear.
----(first you claim they replaced, now it's "or repaired".
Yes, it's hard to be consistent when doing a clinton.)---
As I stated before, if you are really convinced that the damage
you've done compromizes the VB enough to justify carrying more
weight of additional inner cover fabric, then you can put such
fabric on or pay us to do it. But first, please pay attention
enough to WEIGH the bag night and morning over many nights of use
to see if always carrying additional 6oz. is worth it. Do the
same test with a non VB bag, and learn the value of it. Obviously
you do believe VB is extremely important (else you would not
raise such a fuss over percieved loss of some of it). So your
friendly solution to all your friends is going to be to tell them
to avoid buying the only bag available with VB in it, because you
don't like being told the truth? No wonder other companies are
afraid to improve products.
Integral designs, The North Face, Western Mountaineering,
Feathered Friends, and others sell VBL for their sleeping bags.
They don't sew them in, but I bet > they would if they were
asked to.
---(so ask, don't guess)---
You do have the best (in my opinion) tent and sleeping bag
designs. What you don't have is very good quality control, or
customer support.
---(now that's news! Our business has thrived for 43 years
almost entirely due to customer promotion. Even you give us high
praise in your effort to discredit ME because you can't steal
from my son)---
I happen to use my backpacking gear. I have dealt
---(ripped off)---
with many backpacking companies. Most offer lifetime
warranties or guarantees. Most yuppies will never wear their gear
out. But I use mine. Now I don't expect The North Face to give me
a new pack because my 10 year old one wore out. But if it had
serious problems when it was only a few years old, I would expect
them to fix it.
In fact I have sent my old pack to them twice, and they
repaired a blown seam (which I expected), and a hole in the pack
(which I expected them to charge me for, as I abraded a hole
through it while rock climbing). They charged me for neither
repair.
---(all these many failures of every bit of other gear you
ever had is not, in your dim mind, an indication of poor quality
control or materials, but, because I refuse to lie and "admit"
that YOUR abusive damage is somehow "my fault", that indicates
poor quality control: well, I guess you got me there: it is
difficult to control the quality of customers, and we clearly
failed when we let you be one of our customers.)------
If I had burned a hole in your bag, it would my problem. If a
bear ripped my bag apart, it would be my problem. If some
material inside the bag fails under normal use, I consider it to
be your problem.
It is possible that I have gotten some of the text from jack
and from myself confused. I have worked hard to try to make the
email readable, but it was really screwy
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1999 8:23
From: Turbo
To: jack@warmlite.com
Subject: Re: reply to 7-01-99
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Your message arrived
when I was hiking in Israel. After I returned, I went rafting at
the America River.
Jack, perhaps you should learn how to properly respond to
email so that it can be read. The skill to do so is easy, at
least for most people. I have done the best I can to separate
your comments from my text.
You are so busy trying to defend your misleading statements
that you refuse to READ and follow the advice I gave you. I have
no need to defend myself or our products, but DO want ALL
customers to get the best use from them. I CAN'T do that for
those who refuse to accept any advice. I've given you FULL and
accurate information about Vap-R-Soft and the crazy reasons for
ever using it to humor customers who would NOT read or
understand.
Jack, I have read all of your advice. I bought a $758 sleeping
bag, in October of 1992. thinking it was the best one around, and
that it would last for many years. I selected a material that you
were selling. I used the bag in good faith, without abusing it in
any way.
In less than 2 years of use, the material failed. If it was a
bad batch or a bad design of material isn't of great concern to
me. You or your people made the bag, and you should stand behind
the bag. If I had a bear attack the bag, I wouldn't expect you to
be responsible for the bag. But it was just me, sleeping in my
bag.
Jack, I never saw Vap-R-Soft before buying a sleeping bag with
it. In your catalog, you described it as being a better VBL than
the coated, aluminized nylon, and it was more comfortable, but it
was a bit heavier and more expensive. Since I like to sleep with
minimal clothing (as I am sure you can understand), I decided to
get it. You didn't mention that it was quite fragile,
----- (but it isn't, as proven from 16 years of use all
over the world, and still not a single report of weight increase
from condensation in bags with it, INCLUDING YOU)
Please explain how I determine how much water vapor is going
through the down? Scales are not all that accurate and I want to
measure how much vapor is getting into it over night, including
the water that evaporates before I weigh it.
Simply measuring the moisture in the bag in the morning won't
do. If it were below freezing, all the moisture would freeze
somewhere inside the bag. That would make it easier to measure
the water vapor, but not very comfortable for me.
So now your bag is useless to me in below freezing
conditions.
Perhaps you don't have a single report since you want people
to jump through hoops and they instead give up.
---- (you still refuse to let us even see it, and years ago
refused to accept an additional VB covering, and you now retract
your original false claim that the bag was falling
apart)-----
I refuse to let you see it? I sent it to you and you refused
to repair it and instead said that I would have to pay for adding
material in a poor manner. You claim that I refuse to let you see
it is an absolute lie. Are you writing this to try to look good
to someone? It sure does not seem to be directed to me since I
know the truth.
I am not retracting that the bag has a problem and the
interior is falling apart. Where do you get that from?
I have your coated nylon bivy sack. When the bag was new,
there was very little or no condensation inside it after
sleeping. Now, if I use it, the bag is soaked along with the bivy
sack. I have to dry both of them out in the morning.
------( We have ALWAYS warned that use of ANY kind of
waterproof covering over ANY bag WILL cause heavy condensation on
the cover, thus wetting the bag. No VB in use for clothing or
sleeping bags is near "perfect" [Goretex is as good a VB as any
VB material being used!!!!], but without the stupidity of
blocking the escape of what little gets thru, most VBs will
prevent significant condensation (and weight increase) in the
bag.)-----
When the bag was new, there was very little condensation
inside the bivy sack, and now it gets soaked. Seems like your
vapor barrier has been compromised.
Goretex is as good as any VB material being used? That is not
what you have said before, plus it is not a VB since it is
designed to allow water vapor to go through it.
I don't weigh
---(bad english)---
the bag,
-----(maybe because it is such a simple way to prove you
are TOTALLY WRONG and you don't want to admit that!!!)
----
but it is a major hassle. If it were very cold, or I couldn't
dry the bag out, it would get very wet.
---(negative conclusion based on avoided fact)---
I am glad you are an English teacher. I am sorry my English is
not perfect. Such attacks are a sign of a lack of a true defense
though.
The reason I don't want to weigh the bag is because it has
little meaning. Why don't you tell me right now what the
acceptable level of increase is? Both in percentage and weight
increase. I suspect that if I weigh the bag and then tell you,
you will claim that is an acceptable level, so why don't you set
the terms right now so that it is clear?
I bought the bag, expecting it to last many years. I had
wore
---(more bad english)---
out conventional down bags, and I paid lots of money for your
bag, expecting the VBL to keep the down in good condition for
many years. The down is now getting exposed to much more vapor
that it was when it was new. I think this is very bad for the
down, and will reduce its lifetime.
----(Please present your PROOF of this: All others with
Down bags without VB will want to know that!!)----
Well, someone named Jack Stephenson told me about the problems
of letting the down get wet due to sweat moisture. It was one of
the selling points of his sleeping bag design.
I don't know exactly what is happening inside the bag. What I
can see, is large areas, well over 10 square inches,
---(how did you measure that? You won't let us see the
bag!)----
I sent the bag before, or have you forgotten that? The size is
a estimate. irregular shapes are hard to measure exactly.
get lots of light through them, when I hold the bag up to the
light. The light areas are very clearly delineated, which makes
me think that the aluminized layers have failed at those regions.
At the same time, much more water vapor is getting through.
----(conclusion based on what test??)---
When there is a gap in the VB, then it is obvious that more
water vapor can get through.
I assume that you use the aluminized layers to form the VBL,
therefore there is well over 10 square inches, that has no
effective VBL.
---(ie. .4% of the area, so it is still 12 time better than
the standard urethane coated VB. Note that you got the Vap-R-Soft
for it's better perceived comfort [no change in that] and maybe
better VB, still 12X better DESPITE your damage!)----
My damage? You keep claiming that I am not giving you the
proof, so turn about is fair, what proof do you have that I
damaged the bag? There is no signs of damage on the outer
sections of the bag and I am not small enough to slip in between
the material to harm it in there. So, how could I damage the bag?
Please explain in detail as to how I damaged the inside of the
bag without affecting the rest of the bag.
Yes, 12x is better than something else, but that is not what I
bought and paid for. Can you understand that concept?
Now, I know you don't seal your seams inside the bag, so there
will always be a small amount of vapor that gets through, however
I think that large holes in the VBL is much worse than lots of
tiny holes that are filled with thread.
---(yup, fully agree, but 12 times better than standard is
still better)----
At least you agree that a large hole in the VB is much
"worse", yet you don't acknowledge it elsewhere.
It is at the straight stitching where the insides appear to be
failing. In my bag, it has pulled back several inches
----(not possible, unless your "several inches" is like .3
instead of 3 inches, since the original quilting would block any
pullback more than .7 inches.)--- in places.
Not possible? Well, I guess I should write to all the
newspapers since the impossible has happened. The inner material
can and did rip and so it is free to move.
Where it has failed, about one pound of tension will make the
rip grow larger
---(no, only temporarily appear larger. Relax the pull and
it springs back to about 1/4)--- .
I have tested that on my bag. It is much too weak
---(by what standard of comparison? The bag is still fully
together, not losing any down, still has better Vb than any
available VB "liner" for any other bag)----- .
By what standard? By the standard that I should be able to
sleep in it without it having additional damage.
Perhaps those seams should never be under any tension, or
perhaps my bag was sewn with the material too tight to begin
with.
---- (the only possible sewing errors would result in the
net + polyethylene layer being puckered relative to the baffle
fabric [sewn on top], thus reducing stresses on that
layer.)----
I don't really know.
---(only accurate statement you've made!)---
All I know is that my VBL is failing, in a
--(in)--
significant way.
That is the ONLY possible sewing error? Sewing corners too
tight is not possible? Not sewing sections is not possible? If
the vap-r-soft was shorter than the outer material, then there
would be more stress in it than on the outer material. This is a
sewing error.
A baffle on the thin top is coming apart. I wonder if that is
more of my 'abuse'?
Unless the poly is it is too short, or under tension.
----(you may be on to something here: the netting is quite
stretchy, as is polyethylene. As I understand it, all layers are
fed together thru the quilting machine which makes those wavy
stitches to hold them all together. I have no idea how they keep
all layers equally spread, but it all appears very uniform to us.
We found that direct tension across it could not load the
polyethylene enough to tear it, but is is possible to tear the
poly with a strong pull on the 45 deg. bias. The poly can't pull
back between the netting more than the relative stretch of the
netting over the distance from baffle stitch line to the quilt
stitch line (unloaded), which at most is 3/4" (under full load)
between where the quilt lines cross, and when the load is removed
it comes back to 1/4". Thus in relaxed state along any one baffle
seam you could have a gap varying from zero to 1/4" every 3" to
4" [quilting crosses itself every 1" and 4"]. With 6" seam
spacing that amounts to 2% of the surface area. The standard
urethane coated VB fabric effectively has 5% porosity compared to
100% for uncoated fabric (Goretex has 4%). The polyethylene has
.0004%. Thus, if you had damaged ALL seams the maximum amount,
the humidity loss thru them would be 2.0004% compared to 5% for
urethane coated standard VB fabric (which is what ALL other VB
tie in liners are made of!). Thus the importance of doing the
SIMPLE test of weighing your bag before use and after a cold
night. Adding a new VB fabric over interior of 1 layer may add 3
oz. (6oz for both tops), and it doesn't make sense to do that if
weight gain due to condensation is less!)-----
Well, it seems that now you are admitting that it can be
damaged due to load.
It has failed in several places, including, but not limited to
the bottom and the top. It seems to me, that the Vap-R-Soft isn't
robust enough to be used as a VBL in a sleeping bag. Have there
every been problems with your coated nylon interiors ripping? I
would guess no.
----(correct. And, Vap-R-Soft has never structurally failed
either, and on those the actual interior is even stronger
uncoated nylon)-----
Yet in previous messages you mentioned others that had similar
problems. I guess it is hard to keep your story straight. In my
case it has failed.
There can also be problems with assembly, perhaps it was sewn
too tightly, or the stitching was too close together. I don't
know the internals of your bag, but it is clear that others have
had a similar problem with the poly tearing.
---(who are those others? As far as I know you are the
first)
Try re-reading the mail that you have sent. You did not
mention names.
Perhaps it was bad materials selection.
-----(absolutely correct: gross stupidity to try to
"improve" something that works correctly to fit the percieved
possible problems of those who know nothing about it!!! But, I'm
sure your now understand how difficult it is to educate people
about the benefits of VB, so bending over backwards and losing a
lot of $$ to help with the guessed at comfort or feeling problem
didn't seem like such a bad idea at the time, and that may be the
ONLY way you got convinced to try VB. Now you give me hell for it
not being perfect, or strong enough to take your abuse. So you'll
try to destroy the only business that is trying to help people
get the benefits of VB, with your stupid mindless complaints and
refusal to accept a fix. Sorry, but you can't convince people
that I'm less polite than I really am toward lying and insulting
idiots.)-----
Please give me proof of the abuse? (see above for more
details)
I am not trying to destroy your business. I am only letting
people know the experience I am having with dealing with you.
Your letters show people of what to expect from you. So if anyone
is attempting to destroy your business it is you,
unfortunately.
You claim that I am lying, so where is the proof?
I know materials can be damaged from overheating. Sewn slings
used for rock-climbing are bar-tacked with water cooled needles,
to keep the nylon and spectra from overheating.
----( BULL: It's ONLY to cool the needle so the THREAD
won't break!! You seem to delight in proving your
ignorance!!!!)----
It was just a guess
---(Yes, you can guess, but we have to work with
FACTS)----
that perhaps the poly could be weakened from too much heat
Perhaps you should talk to someone like Dan McHale who has
experience with sewing spectra and knows about the issue of heat
related to the sewing. You say that it is only to cool the needle
so that the thread won't break, but if the material is not
sensitive to the heat then why would a hot needle harm the
thread? If a hot needle can harm the thread then why can't it
harm the material?
It so happens that spectra has a temperature limit of 250F.
Blue Water, as well as all the other climbing companies who make
sewn spectra slings, uses water cooled needles, to keep both the
thread and the material cool enough.
What facts do you present? You have guesses, justifications,
excuses, insults, etc. for a defense rather than any facts.
No, I bought it because I sleep nude,
----(which is valid at home in a warm room, total nonsense
in cold weather when to cool yourself in too warm a bag you have
to vent it: no one wants 30 deg. air on their bare skin, so nude
means soaking in sweat all night? Go nude during the day:
obviously you ARE NOT "nude" when enclosed in a sleeping bag, so
why leave out the most important part of comfort THEN when you
were too cowardly to go nude during the day??)----
Oh, I forgot that I was too cowardly to go nude during the
day.
It happens to be illegal in most public places where I hike,
but perfectly legal inside one's sleeping bag.
I can see the inner seams by holding up the top to a bright
light source. The aluminum isn't wearing off
-----(can't you READ? Wear off of alum. refered to is on
the inner fabric, not the poly! Gad, some people are so dense one
wonders how they survived!)---- .
It is tearing. I have demonstrated that to myself and to Ken,
with some gentle tugging.
You claimed that the light was just the alum. wearing off, I
responded to that by saying it was obvious that was not the
case.
I was pretty clear about my observations.
----(No one else agrees with you on that!)---
I am glad that you have talked to everyone. Perhaps those who
agree with me don't see any point in telling you that since you
will not listen.
No, I sent the bag in several years ago, expecting
---(Bull crap, you turned down that offer then due to
weight, and now bitch endessly but refuse to sent the bag for
examination or for new inner layer. You would shame even
clinton.)----
that you would install coated nylon over the VBL. I thought it
was a cheap hack, but at least my bag would last a reasonable
amount of time. You sent the tops back un-repaired, and didn't
explain why you did nothing.
I turned down the "offer" since I was expected to pay for it
and I considered the problem to be a defect. Weight is also an
issue since you advertise your products as being light weight and
adding extra weight in order to fix a defect rather than doing
the proper repair is not all that acceptable.
You prefer to just cause trouble and be annoying. Such as
the obviously misleading statement: "here the Mylar has failed,
all the layers have failed at the same spot". If all the layers
had failed the baffles would be disconnected (indicating really
gross abuse) and down would be between layers. There is
aluminized POLYETHYLENE between the net layers, not Mylar. I'm
surprised that you repeatedly quote my statements about
polyethylene, yet persist in calling it Mylar ! So much for your
claim if accurate reading!
Perhaps you should re-read your own statements. I have an
email from you where YOU called it mylar. Care to explain that
before you attack me for making such a mistake?
Comparing this situation to your standard service from Dan
McHale is ridiculous. If materials we used were flawed, or we
made a mistake of any kind, we have ALWAYS repaired or replaced
it at no cost.
That IS NOT the case here. The material and costruction was not
flawed. We have NEVER stated that things we make can't be
damaged,
You have not made the repair in this case and instead insist
that the bag was abused, yet there is NO proof of that, but that
is your only option to get out of doing what is your
responsibility. Either show evidence of the abuse or fix it.
But the bag VBL has been compromised under normal use. I don't
care if it was a bad choice of materials, or too much tension
used during assembly, or a bad batch. It doesn't matter to me. It
has failed under
---(ab)--
normal
---(ab)--
use.
So, exactly how was my use abnormal? I slept in the bag? Is
that abnormal, or abuse? Is your sleeping bag designed to not be
slept in?
I have owned at least 4 sleeping bags, and only yours had
broken.
---(you abused so many? You got ours to replace others you
had damaged.)---
Abused? Where is the proof?
I have been backpacking for a long time. Some bags are made
well, and some are made poorly.
The quality of the other bags was not as good as one would
like. Talk to Dan McHale about products and designs. He does not
offer a warranty and says that many companies do knowing that the
items will need to be repaired. Instead he designs and sells a
product that will not need such repairs because it is well made
and strong.
Dan could has said that I abused the nylon pocket inside the
pack.
---(if he said so, he was correct. But then you have the
assinine gaul to accept it as HIS expense! Now we get to the crux
of this whole thing: You refuse to accept responsibility for
damage YOU do, so blame it on others and delight in ripping them
off. Dan Mahale is a nice honest guy who should not have been
abused by you. I'm not near as nice as he is, so won't accept
such rip off abuse, which irritates the shit out of
you!)----
Well, how would you know what I did to my backpack? Did you
ever see it?
He could have said I abused it, like you are claiming, but he
didn't because he knew that was not the case. I did NOTHING to
abuse it and Dan realized that and fixed it because it had a
problem. An honorable man, especially since he does not have a
warranty and so he does not have to make any such repairs.
Sorry, I can not resist due to your constant attacks, who is
"Dan Mahale"? I know of only Dan McHale.
I did not abuse Dan at all. Ask him about it if you like. You
are correct that you are not as nice as he is and instead of
making repairs, you abuse people and claim abuse to avoid doing
what you should. This is what I find annoying.
I think that your bag was poorly made. I want you to repair or
replace the tops, making it work well. I don't want you to sew
more material inside of it to make it heavier. I would be a fool
or rich to abuse a $700+ sleeping bag, and I am neither.
---(from your writings I think you proved being a Clinton
type idiot, not a fool)
If anyone is using Clinton type tactics, it is you.
I consider the bag to be half useless. I won't take it on any
long backpacks.
---(and I hope you won't. Clearly you don't deserve that
much comfort and protection!)----
Such a nice comment.
I won't take it anywhere where it might rain and I would be
unable to dry it out.
---(ie, you're not smart enough to use a tent in
rain.)---
Think, Jack, think! If the bag gets wet since the VB is
compromised, then it needs to be left out to dry. It does not dry
as well in a tent. Therefore you need to put it outside,
especially if you are putting the tent away. If it is raining, it
is not possible to put it outside since it will get wet. Drying
the bag has little to do with where you sleep, get it?
If I have to do an alpine start, I won't take it, because I
won't have time to dry it out.
----(and yet you can't give us any evidence that it ever
gets wet! Pray tell, what bag DO you use, and what is the "better
VB" in it?)----
I told you it gets wet. My direct observation. That is
unrefutable evidence. Or did you forget that I told you that?
I use it for car camping now, which is all I consider it to be
good for.
--(and probably the only kind of camping you ever did, or
ever should do.)----
The evidence is that the VB is compromised.
There has only been ONE lot of the polyethylene-net quilt
material made for us, and the part of it you are complainng about
is the poly, a material that it well known to be amazingly
uniform in characteristics. The material in your bag is IDENTICAL
to material in Ken's bag and to the material samples. We've never
had any other. The fact that Ken's bag doesn't show the same
problem is simply because he hasn't yet abused it enough to cause
that problem.
Use is abuse - Jack Stephenson.
Or I have slept in my bag more than he has. Or that my sleep
habits are different.
---(ie., much more abusive)----
Use is abuse - Jack Stephenson
It doesn't really matter. The bag broke.
----(isn't that a bit over stating? The bag is still as
good as any of our standard interior bags, and better than any
other bag you can get)----
I didn't abuse it.
---(another clinton)
No, it is not over stating. If you want to pay for shipping
back and forth I will send it to you. You still owe Ken and I for
having to ship the bags back to you when it was incorrectly made
(un-sewn section and a corner too tight for the zipper, which
again makes you above claim false).
You also owe me for shipping the bag back when it was
delivered unfinished, with a pin holding the end of the bottom
collar together.
Yes, your previous statement is another Clinton.
I have had good service from Kelty, The North Face, Sierra
Designs, REI, Sport Chalet (free bag when mine wore out), McHale,
Slumberjack (free bag when mine wore out), Marmot, Patagonia,
Black Diamond, Silva, Suunto, Avocet, Sequel, and many
others.
---(I've never heard of anyone who had abused so many
companies. Seems that you make a habit of ripping off everyone
you can, and are now royally pissed that you can't rip us off
too. The world doesn't need dishonest ripoff liars like you, nor
companies who give in to their blackmail threats. You've been
trying to discredit us by posting these letters on the net,
resulting in a number of complimentary letters praising me for
not giving in to your extortion demands. Probably more important
though is that it has been one of the best testimonials to the
NEED for Vapor barrier yet, and I thank you for
that.)-----
Abuse? You keep claiming abuse, but show no proof.
False claims against me does not speak well of you either. You
claim I am a liar, yet again there is no proof because it is
false.
I am not trying to discredit you. If I wanted to do that then
I would just put up false statements, instead I put up your own
words and let others see what you have said. Do your own words
discredit you?
No other company would take the time to answer you, or give
you such detailed explanation. If anything they would say "sorry,
it's past the 30 day warrantee and it came from Taiwan and is no
longer made" or maybe, if sent within a year, replace it with
identical one.
Sorry, but other companies have a lifetime warranty.
I got a free new bag at Sport Chalet when my old Camp7 brand
bag wore out, as it had a lifetime warranty, even though the bag
was around 8 years old.
---(and they had to get rid of left over stock from a
discontinued company? Camp 7 started many years after us, and has
been gone for about 20 years!)----
Well, that's surprising, because as of 5 years ago, Sport
Chalet's house brand was called Camp 7. Why don't you call them
and ask?
I got a free new bag at Slumberjack when their bag's loft was
significantly reduced, as it had a lifetime warranty, even though
it was 2 years old.
---(proving GROSS abuse)---
Really? You mean that even though I kept the bag uncompressed
and the loft decreased by over a factor of two. that it was GROSS
abuse? How is that possible? And since you didn't see it, how do
you know it was GROSS abuse?
Patagonia replaced some pants when a seam ripped, even though
they were at least 5 years old, with new pants, and they even
sent me a check, because the new pants cost less than my old
pants. That was a bit of a surprise.
---(you have more abusive gaul than 100 other normal
people)---
Excuse me? They have a lifetime warranty and so I send them in
to get repaired and they send me a check because the price
dropped and because of that I have abusive gaul? I didn't ask for
a check. I asked that they repair their pants.
Silva has replaced their compasses several times with new
ones, when the old ones break.
---(you are the first I ever heard of breaking one, and you
brag about breaking several!!)---
I am not bragging. The "breaking" is getting a large bubble in
it. I guess you would say that I abused it, but I can't imagine
how I can abuse the compass which results in getting an air
bubble in it.
I happen to teach navigation and I spend a lot of time
outdoors. I guess I actually use backpacking gear.
Sequel sent me a new hat when my old one developed a few
problems.
---(probably too big for your tiny brainless
head)---
Oh, Jack, this is just so typically you and what others need
to see. The wonderful abuse of your customers by insults.
The North Face sent me a tent bag for my VE-24, when I told
them
---(ie, clintoned them)
that my old one has a few rips in it, even though they never
asked me to send them the old tent bag.
I tell them the bag has some rips in it and was completely
honest with them and so they send me a new bag. This is lying?
What am I missing other than your looking for any excuse to
attack and insult people?
Avocet sent me a new watch because my battery didn't last as
long as they thought it should.
-----(you sure destroy a lot of gear!)-----
This is a good one. The battery does not last, so I destroy a
lot of gear.
Avocet's watch band disintegrated when it was -25F when I was
in Alaska. They didn't tell me I abused their gear. When I called
them from Alaska, on their 800 number, they said they had a
manufacturing problem, and that there would be a new watch band
waiting for me at home when I returned, and to return the broken
one to them. That is what a company should do.
I go out a lot and use my stuff a lot, which is what it should
be designed for. Dan McHale designs his products for use, others
offer a lifetime warranty to get people to buy their stuff and
then deal with the failures later.
All these companies have dealt with problems with their
products
---(no, problem customers, which you must be the absolute
worst!)---
"cheerfully". None of them claimed that I abused their
product. They all replaced or repaired their gear.
----(first you claim they replaced, now it's "or repaired".
Yes, it's hard to be consistent when doing a clinton.)---
Jack, in many cases they replaced the items. In some cases
they repaired them. Is such a fact so critical when you will not
repair or replace your defective item? Will you do either?
Obviously you do believe VB is extremely important (else
you would not raise such a fuss over percieved loss of some of
it). So your friendly solution to all your friends is going to be
to tell them to avoid buying the only bag available with VB in
it, because you don't like being told the truth? No wonder other
companies are afraid to improve products.
My friendly solution is to let people know what they are
getting into if they buy your products. That way, should they
decide to buy something from you, they will know up front what
they are getting into.
Several folks have told me they want to buy your gear. I tell
what has happened to me, and they make up their own minds about
what to do.
You do have the best (in my opinion) tent and sleeping bag
designs. What you don't have is very good quality control, or
customer support.
---(now that's news! Our business has thrived for 43 years
almost entirely due to customer promotion. Even you give us high
praise in your effort to discredit ME because you can't steal
from my son)---
I am not trying to steal from you at all. I am just trying to
get you to deal with a problem with your bag, which seems to be
clearly a defect.
I promoted your products for many years. I still say that they
are some of the best products, but the support is lacking and the
response is abusive.
I happen to use my backpacking gear. I have dealt
---(ripped off)---
with many backpacking companies.
I have never ripped off any company, care to show the proof of
your claim and admit that you are lying? I didn't think so.
In fact I have sent my old pack to them twice, and they
repaired a blown seam (which I expected), and a hole in the pack
(which I expected them to charge me for, as I abraded a hole
through it while rock climbing). They charged me for neither
repair.
---(all these many failures of every bit of other gear you
ever had is not, in your dim mind, an indication of poor quality
control or materials, but, because I refuse to lie and "admit"
that YOUR abusive damage is somehow "my fault" that indicates
poor quality control: well, I guess you got me there: it is
difficult to control the quality of customers, and we clearly
failed when we let you be one of our customers.)------
They offer a lifetime warranty, so the repair things. There is
NO abusive damage and you know full well that you can not show
that, but you want to claim it so that you don't have to do what
you should.
